True Acts 2:38 Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation

[Eugene]

Already, we have all believers in Heaven, or some of them at least. We don't have a resurrection event that put them in heaven. We don't have any resurrection event in Rev but the 2nd one. We have to assume some things. We know believers that are going to rule as Kings and priest are in heaven in Rev 5, they have been redeemed of God all over the Earth. This a pre-trib Rapture? Just believers that have already died long before? We don't know but it could be evidence.

Hi Mike and I've got my thoughts on this based on what I perceive after all John describes of this present time or Church Age through the first three chapters of Revelation.

In Revelation 4:1 John is then invited to heaven to describe things which must be hereafter from that time. In Revelation 4:2 John sees Jesus receiving His own throne. Revelation 4:4 John sees redeemed saints (Rev 5:9) around the throne, and Revelation 4:6 show redeemed saints among the throne (How did they get there?).

Brief explanation: There are seven conditions of the Church described in Revelation Chapters Two and Three. Five are told to repent, and two; Philadelphia and Smyrna have crowns. Smyrna represents the dead in Christ (1 Thes 4:16) to rise first that remain faithful unto death and receive a crown (Rev 2:10).

Philadelphia are those who remain alive until Jesus’ coming for them in the air (If there is a last trump, there are previous ones) and they are the ones that will not enter into the hour of temptation to come upon all the world (The first 3 ½ yrs of the seven years of tribulation.) because they faithfully keep the word (Rev 3:10), and they have crowns (Rev 3:11). (Rev 4:4).

At this point, has the tribulation began?

 

[Eugene]

No animal sacrifices started up. (????) Are they suppose to be? back under the law? ummm. I heard this, but Seven years is not enough time to institute such a thing, and those believes that are left, or raptured would not buy into it anyway. Not really checked on this one.

Daniel 12:11 tells us that 1290 days prior to the middle of the week of tribulation the evening sacrifice shall be taken away. To be taken from them, their sacrifice will have been reestablished and they don’t need a temple to do it.

 

[Eugene]

I have a issue with Rev 20 taking this stance. Satan is definitely not bound yet.

Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel (Who is the Angel having the keys - Revelation 1:18) come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. … Do you realize this time is during the millennium, a time after Satan was already thrown out of heaven in Revelation 12:9 during the second 3 ½ years of tribulation?

 

[Eugene]

Ive read most of these posts and it's clear to me, nobody seems to understand what the tribulation is .......

Whatever it is I doesn't wanna do it.

 

[Brother Mike]

I tried to post back Eugene, but I guess you need to hit the send button............. sign.......... all that typing again.

Mike.

 

[n2thelight]

Ive read most of these posts and it's clear to me, nobody seems to understand what the tribulation is .......

Whatever it is I doesn't wanna do it.

Sorry,think I'll share anyway ......First, there are two tribulations,the first being that of satan pretending to be Christ
The 2nd is of Christ and His wrath when he returns,this will only be poured out on those who followed after the false christ.......

Now about this rapture thing,Christ said He had to shorten the days,for the elect sake


Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

Now if the Church is so called raptured,why would Christ need to shorten the days?Please don't give me that He's refering to the tribulation saints as you all call them,He said for the ELECT sake...Now who would be first to go in a rapture if not His elect,so why are they staill here?

Next Paul said we would not gather to Christ until after the man of sin is revealed.....

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

There's that word and what it's all about....deception

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Now let's zoom to Matthew

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

In this chapter Christ tells us everything that shall,and must happen before His return,and there's no mention of this rapture in the entire chapter,if you think there is,do show me!!!!

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

There's that word again......

This chapter gives us the 7 seals that are in the book of Rev,as does Mark 13

Matthew 24:5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ;' and shall deceive many."

Many come teaching falsehoods claiming that they are of Christ,however none have anything on the son of perdition who is the anti christ whom is non other than satan himself,live and in person...This happen when Michael kicks him out of heaven...

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

This is satan.....

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.
Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

Now why will so many be deceived?Paul tells us that as well.....

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

Now how and why is it for you own protection?

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system.

"Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or whore houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.

So again,the tribulation is all about deception,and not people running around getting their heads chopped off,even if that were the case Christains have been getting tortured for Christ since forever,what makes you so special that you wouldn't ,even if that were the case!!!!!

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The rapture of the church of God is a biblical certainty, not some theory. Its basis is 1 Thess 4, not Matthew 24.

People often debate the timing of the rapture which is fine, but to call the rapture of the church of God a theory is to dismiss the word of God in 1Thess 4 as a theory, which it is not, but once again, a biblical certainty.

paul never says Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation , men lie and claim paul does. Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs who will claim to be Him, paul teaches the Lord's coming is also after the working of satan who will claim to be God in II thess 2:1-12.

the certainty is when the false Christs come they will gather the tares first who fall for the pre trib rapture mistake instead of waiting for Jesus Christ as wise virgins.

 

[Eugene]

I tried to post back Eugene, but I guess you need to hit the send button............. sign.......... all that typing again. Mike.

Hey brother, I thought that only occurred to us old people. I have promised myself umpteen times I would never again post a quick reply without writing it on a document first but alas I don't learn. You'd think James 1:3 would kick in somewhere; "Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience." I look forward to your reply.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

There is no "the great tribulation"

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[n2thelight]

Let's look Matthew some more....

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This is not the tribulation of God for there are two tribulations, and this tribulation is the tribulation of the deception. This is the tribulation of the locust army, spoken of in the book of Joel. This locust army will so pervert the minds of all men on earth, that the truth of God word will be as a desolate wilderness. It is at this time that the Holy Spirit will speak through the elect, as recorded in Acts 2:6-8. Where when the faithful of Christ were together, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit of God. They left that room and entered the streets, and when they spoke to the multitude, "every man heard in his own language." This was Pentecost, and the Jews came from every part of the world, speaking all the languages of the world. This was not the turkey calling that is presented today, and it needed no interpreter.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent. There are two tribulations, and you had better know the difference.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God. Are you one of God's elect? Are you going to be in the field working for God, or wandering after the fake Christ?

Study written by Roger Christopherson

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Ive read most of these posts and it's clear to me, nobody seems to understand what the tribulation is .......

Whatever it is I doesn't wanna do it.

Sorry,think I'll share anyway ......First, there are two tribulations,the first being that of satan pretending to be Christ
The 2nd is of Christ and His wrath when he returns,this will only be poured out on those who followed after the false christ.......

Now about this rapture thing,Christ said He had to shorten the days,for the elect sake


Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

Now if the Church is so called raptured,why would Christ need to shorten the days?Please don't give me that He's refering to the tribulation saints as you all call them,He said for the ELECT sake...Now who would be first to go in a rapture if not His elect,so why are they staill here?

Next Paul said we would not gather to Christ until after the man of sin is revealed.....

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

There's that word and what it's all about....deception

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Now let's zoom to Matthew

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

In this chapter Christ tells us everything that shall,and must happen before His return,and there's no mention of this rapture in the entire chapter,if you think there is,do show me!!!!

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

There's that word again......

This chapter gives us the 7 seals that are in the book of Rev,as does Mark 13

Matthew 24:5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ;' and shall deceive many."

Many come teaching falsehoods claiming that they are of Christ,however none have anything on the son of perdition who is the anti christ whom is non other than satan himself,live and in person...This happen when Michael kicks him out of heaven...

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

This is satan.....

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.
Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

Now why will so many be deceived?Paul tells us that as well.....

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

Now how and why is it for you own protection?

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system.

"Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or whore houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.

So again,the tribulation is all about deception,and not people running around getting their heads chopped off,even if that were the case Christains have been getting tortured for Christ since forever,what makes you so special that you wouldn't ,even if that were the case!!!!!

AMEN! Key of David=truth=lamp oil

 

[Eugene]

Sorry,think I'll share anyway ......First, there are two tribulations,the first being that of satan pretending to be Christ
The 2nd is of Christ and His wrath when he returns,this will only be poured out on those who followed after the false christ.......

I'm going to attempt to divide up my answers to your post so as to be able to keep one point at a time discussed.

1. You say there are two tribulations, the first being that of satan pretending to be Christ. Do you have scripture concerning the first showing the beginning and end of it?

2. And then you state that the 2nd is of Christ and His wrath when he returns, this will only be poured out on those who followed after the false christ....... Again please define the beginning and end of this with scripture if possible. Now the reason I ask this is because I need to know for sure if here you're talking of the Great White Throne judgment, or when fire comes down out of heaven. Thanks.

 

[Eventide]

The rapture of the church of God is a biblical certainty, not some theory. Its basis is 1 Thess 4, not Matthew 24.

People often debate the timing of the rapture which is fine, but to call the rapture of the church of God a theory is to dismiss the word of God in 1Thess 4 as a theory, which it is not, but once again, a biblical certainty.

paul never says Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation , men lie and claim paul does. Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs who will claim to be Him, paul teaches the Lord's coming is also after the working of satan who will claim to be God in II thess 2:1-12.

the certainty is when the false Christs come they will gather the tares first who fall for the pre trib rapture mistake instead of waiting for Jesus Christ as wise virgins.

Then I guess you believe that Satan is going to raise the dead and meet the church of God in the air..

Sounds silly doesn't it.. because it is.

So tell us, how in the world is Satan going to raise the dead in Christ first and then meet the church in the air ?

IMO people simply don't understand the rapture of the church of God, because we're meeting the LORD in the AIR.. so that's why imo it's silly to think that anyone but the Lord is going to pull that off.

 

[Eugene]

Sorry,think I'll share anyway ......First, there are two tribulations,the first being that of satan pretending to be Christ
The 2nd is of Christ and His wrath when he returns,this will only be poured out on those who followed after the false christ.......

I'm going to attempt to divide up my answers to your post so as to be able to keep one point at a time discussed.

1. You say there are two tribulations, the first being that of satan pretending to be Christ. Do you have scripture concerning the first showing the beginning and end of it?

2. And then you state that the 2nd is of Christ and His wrath when he returns, this will only be poured out on those who followed after the false christ....... Again please define the beginning and end of this with scripture if possible. Now the reason I ask this is because I need to know for sure if here you're talking of the Great White Throne judgment, or when fire comes down out of heaven. Thanks.

 

[n2thelight]

The rapture of the church of God is a biblical certainty, not some theory. Its basis is 1 Thess 4, not Matthew 24.

People often debate the timing of the rapture which is fine, but to call the rapture of the church of God a theory is to dismiss the word of God in 1Thess 4 as a theory, which it is not, but once again, a biblical certainty.

paul never says Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation , men lie and claim paul does. Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs who will claim to be Him, paul teaches the Lord's coming is also after the working of satan who will claim to be God in II thess 2:1-12.

the certainty is when the false Christs come they will gather the tares first who fall for the pre trib rapture mistake instead of waiting for Jesus Christ as wise virgins.

Then I guess you believe that Satan is going to raise the dead and meet the church of God in the air..

Sounds silly doesn't it.. because it is.

So tell us, how in the world is Satan going to raise the dead in Christ first and then meet the church in the air ?

IMO people simply don't understand the rapture of the church of God, because we're meeting the LORD in the AIR.. so that's why imo it's silly to think that anyone but the Lord is going to pull that off.

There is nobody dead in the ground somewhere to be raised,at death all return to the Father.....Those who have died in Christ are the one's whom He brings back with Him.....

Those who are here at His return are changed at that instant,along with everyone else...This is the end of the flesh age

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The rapture of the church of God is a biblical certainty, not some theory. Its basis is 1 Thess 4, not Matthew 24.

People often debate the timing of the rapture which is fine, but to call the rapture of the church of God a theory is to dismiss the word of God in 1Thess 4 as a theory, which it is not, but once again, a biblical certainty.

paul never says Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation , men lie and claim paul does.

Jesus Christ says His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs who will claim to be Him matt 24:4-5, paul teaches the Lord's coming is also after the working of satan who will claim to be God in II thess 2:1-12. the kjv references matt 24:30-31 with I thess 4, the post trib rapture.

Then I guess you believe the Satan is going to raise the dead and meet the church of God in the air..

Sounds silly doesn't it.. because it is.

So tell us, how in the world is Satan going to raise the dead in Christ first and then meet the church in the air ?


*where does paul say Jesus Christ's parousia is pre tribulation and why does paul say the Lord's coming is after the working of satan? which verse does paul use the word # strong's reference: g3772 as in sky? paul says we meet the Lord in the aer #g109 breath as in #g4151 spirit (breath of life) as we will ALL change which is obvious according to IIpet 3 the heavens and earth will be on fire.
now why would someone lie and twist pauls use of the word breath into sky?


IMO people simply don't understand the rapture of the church of God, because we're meeting the LORD in the AIR.. so that's why imo it's silly to think that anyone but the Lord is going to pull that off.

1-9 paul warns the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT "at hand" and for believers to let no man decieve them for that Day shall not come except 1.the falling away first and 2 the revealing of satan to be worshiped claiming to be God and repeats in 8-9 the Lord as him who's parousia is AFTER the working of satan : with "signs and lying wonders"

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




Matthew 13:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Matthew 13:36-43

King James Version (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matthew 24:4-5


4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.





Matthew 24:21-31

pre trib rapture : purging of tares





21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




The gathering of wheat :



29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




what's silly is those who refuse to believe Jesus Christ

 

[Eventide]

As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Perhaps the largest stumblingblock which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Israel is an EARTHLY entity with many earthly ordinances...

The church of God is a HEAVENLY entity with our citizenship being in heaven...

People read Matthew 24 and immediately think that its context is the church of God, but it's not... it speaks of those who are in Judaea and that their flight doesn't happen on the sabbath... now think for a minute who this applies to..

Then, in the Revelation... who do we see being with child and protected in the wilderness ?

That's right.. ISRAEL.

Israel will be taken through the great tribulation which is often described as the time of Jacob's trouble.

Remember Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night and then in the morning of that Day the sun rose upon him..?

The night is far spent and the day (of the LORD) is at hand.

 

[Eventide]

There is nobody dead in the ground somewhere to be raised,at death all return to the Father.....Those who have died in Christ are the one's whom He brings back with Him.....

Those who are here at His return are changed at that instant,along with everyone else...This is the end of the flesh age

Then I guess we have a problem Houston... because according to the word of God NO MAN has ascended into heaven but the Son of man who came down from heaven.

Right now there's not a man in heaven save the Lord Jesus Christ... but there will be at the resurrection. In fact Revelation reveals a multitude in heaven and the marriage of the Lamb to His wife taking place before He comes..

So how did they get there ?

 

[n2thelight]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Perhaps the largest stumblingblock which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Israel is an EARTHLY entity with many earthly ordinances...

The church of God is a HEAVENLY entity with our citizenship being in heaven...

People read Matthew 24 and immediately think that its context is the church of God, but it's not... it speaks of those who are in Judaea and that their flight doesn't happen on the sabbath... now think for a minute who this applies to..

Then, in the Revelation... who do we see being with child and protected in the wilderness ?

That's right.. ISRAEL.

Israel will be taken through the great tribulation which is often described as the time of Jacob's trouble.

Remember Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night and then in the morning of that Day the sun rose upon him..?

The night is far spent and the day (of the LORD) is at hand.

You cannot seperate Israel from the Church,and that's the mistake alot of people make......So can you tell me the difference between the Church and Israel?

 

[Eventide]

what's silly is those who refuse to believe Jesus Christ

I have no problem believing what the LORD says or Paul... it's the word of God. And it's crystal clear that the church of God is going to meet the LORD in the air.. so if you'd like to believe that Satan is going to pull off the resurrection of the dead and meet the church in the air... then go right ahead.