True Acts 2:38 Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation

[Watchmen for Christ]

what's silly is those who refuse to believe Jesus Christ

I have no problem believing what the LORD says or Paul... it's the word of God. And it's crystal clear that the church of God is going to meet the LORD in the air.. so if you'd like to believe that Satan is going to pull off the resurrection of the dead and meet the church in the air... then go right ahead.

AER = breath g109 same as g4151 =spirit NOT g3772 sky , paul never says the church is going to fly away, men lie and add fly away to the bible as they add pre trib to the timing of paul's quote of Jesus in matt 24:29-31 who says HIS return and our gathering is after the trib.

 

[Eventide]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

You cannot seperate Israel from the Church,and that's the mistake alot of people make......So can you tell me the difference between the Church and Israel?

I already did and the scriptures do a much better job.

Israel is an EARTHLY entity... everything they did including their ordinances takes place right here on earth.

The church of God has its citizenship in heaven, not on earth.. and we're to set our affections on the things above, and not on the things on earth...

If you believe and teach others that the church of God is Israel.. then the burden is on you.

Teach us from scripture how that the church of God is Israel... I'll give you a hint.. it's vanity.. for there are no scriptures which teach that.

It doesn't even make sense... Israel is blinded in part and cut off from the root which is CHRIST. The church of God is IN CHRIST..

Israel will one day be in Christ.. in that Day, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

resurrection of the dead=started when Jesus rose matt 27 , continues daily I thess 4:13-14 and we return with Jesus jude 1:14-15 rev 19 as the armies of Christ.

no need for a Christian to remain in the grave waiting to be resurrected

 

[Eventide]

paul never says the church is going to fly away

Then by all means teach us what Paul (the Apostle to the GENTILES) teaches us in 1 Thess 4 concerning the dead in Christ rising first and then we which are alive and remain, being caught up together to meet the LORD in the AIR.

 

[Eugene]

Now about this rapture thing, Christ said He had to shorten the days, for the elect sake.

Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

Now if the Church is so called raptured, why would Christ need to shorten the days? Please don't give me that He's referring to the tribulation saints as you all call them, He said for the ELECT sake...Now who would be first to go in a rapture if not His elect, so why are they still here?

Have you considered that all the saved from all time are the elect? According to Romans 11:4 what had God told Elias concerning the elect of his time? There were seven thousand reserved. Would you discount the work of God going forth with mankind after the church is gone? There is no doubt part of the elect is with Christ before the tribulation according to Rev 4:4, Rev 4:6, and Rev 5:9. What of the work of the two witnesses, let alone the work of the Holy Spirit reproving the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

 

[n2thelight]

There is nobody dead in the ground somewhere to be raised,at death all return to the Father.....Those who have died in Christ are the one's whom He brings back with Him.....

Those who are here at His return are changed at that instant,along with everyone else...This is the end of the flesh age

Then I guess we have a problem Houston... because according to the word of God NO MAN has ascended into heaven but the Son of man who came down from heaven.

Right now there's not a man in heaven save the Lord Jesus Christ... but there will be at the resurrection. In fact Revelation reveals a multitude in heaven and the marriage of the Lamb to His wife taking place before He comes..

So how did they get there ?

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

No problem whatsoever

Now let's see what happens at death


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

When man gets to the point of not being able to understand this promise that at death the soul goes immediately to be with the Father, then he form his religious man made ideas, and sidesteps what God's Word teaches. Friend, it takes only a short time for the body to decay, and there is no body there to resurrect. The body returns to the dirt that it is made of, and the soul departs from that body never to return to it.
God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

No such thing as soul sleep........

 

[Eventide]

That's an excellent thing to consider.. that God's elect is not only the church of God, but also the Israel of God...

in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

 

[Eventide]

and there is no body there to resurrect.

Then I see we have another problem... you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead.

What do you think it means when the sea gives up its dead.. or that those in the graves will hear the voice of God.

Is that just filler in the word of God

 

[n2thelight]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

You cannot seperate Israel from the Church,and that's the mistake alot of people make......So can you tell me the difference between the Church and Israel?

I already did and the scriptures do a much better job.

Israel is an EARTHLY entity... everything they did including their ordinances takes place right here on earth.

The church of God has its citizenship in heaven, not on earth.. and we're to set our affections on the things above, and not on the things on earth...

If you believe and teach others that the church of God is Israel.. then the burden is on you.

Teach us from scripture how that the church of God is Israel... I'll give you a hint.. it's vanity.. for there are no scriptures which teach that.

It doesn't even make sense... Israel is blinded in part and cut off from the root which is CHRIST. The church of God is IN CHRIST..

Israel will one day be in Christ.. in that Day, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

You are either with Christ or against Him,Israel is no more special than any other group of people...Israel must be in Christ now or they are not His,period......

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

The partition in the old Temple separated the Israelites [Jews] from the Gentile. At Christ's death on the cross, the earth shook, and the vial in the Temple was split in two, as recorded in Matthew 27:51. All barriers came down that blocked any person from approaching God through His Son, Jesus Christ. That wall of separation, separated the outer court from the inner court, and a Gentile could not walk past that wall. God's approach was through the holy of Holies, in the inner court, and the forgiveness of sins was only possible through the blood sacrifices offered there.

When Jesus shed His blood, all the blood sacrifices ended. Jesus Christ was the only sacrifice necessary to cover all sin, both then and now. Jesus is now the Temple, and when we are in Christ we become part of that body of Christ, or Temple.

Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

In other words; there is only one temple, one family, one way through Jesus Christ. If you think it means "the law doesn't matter anymore", your wrong. The key to the understanding of this verse is stated," contained in ordinances". There is a difference between "the law", and "ordinances within the law".
This verse is directed to the ordinances of "blood sacrifice", also called "the daily sacrifices" that are within the law. These blood sacrifices are not required anymore. ever, because Jesus Christ's blood sacrificed on the cross satisfied completely that part of the law, before our Heavenly Father. Jesus was, and is the perfect sacrifice. See Hebrews 10.

Ephesians 2:16 "And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"All that believe and follow Christ now have this access to their creator.

 

[Eventide]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

You cannot seperate Israel from the Church,and that's the mistake alot of people make......So can you tell me the difference between the Church and Israel?

I already did and the scriptures do a much better job.

Israel is an EARTHLY entity... everything they did including their ordinances takes place right here on earth.

The church of God has its citizenship in heaven, not on earth.. and we're to set our affections on the things above, and not on the things on earth...

If you believe and teach others that the church of God is Israel.. then the burden is on you.

Teach us from scripture how that the church of God is Israel... I'll give you a hint.. it's vanity.. for there are no scriptures which teach that.

It doesn't even make sense... Israel is blinded in part and cut off from the root which is CHRIST. The church of God is IN CHRIST..

Israel will one day be in Christ.. in that Day, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

You are either with Christ or against Him,Israel is no more special than any other group of people...Israel must be in Christ now or they are not His,period......

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

The partition in the old Temple separated the Israelites [Jews] from the Gentile. At Christ's death on the cross, the earth shook, and the vial in the Temple was split in two, as recorded in Matthew 27:51. All barriers came down that blocked any person from approaching God through His Son, Jesus Christ. That wall of separation, separated the outer court from the inner court, and a Gentile could not walk past that wall. God's approach was through the holy of Holies, in the inner court, and the forgiveness of sins was only possible through the blood sacrifices offered there.

When Jesus shed His blood, all the blood sacrifices ended. Jesus Christ was the only sacrifice necessary to cover all sin, both then and now. Jesus is now the Temple, and when we are in Christ we become part of that body of Christ, or Temple.

Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

In other words; there is only one temple, one family, one way through Jesus Christ. If you think it means "the law doesn't matter anymore", your wrong. The key to the understanding of this verse is stated," contained in ordinances". There is a difference between "the law", and "ordinances within the law".
This verse is directed to the ordinances of "blood sacrifice", also called "the daily sacrifices" that are within the law. These blood sacrifices are not required anymore. ever, because Jesus Christ's blood sacrificed on the cross satisfied completely that part of the law, before our Heavenly Father. Jesus was, and is the perfect sacrifice. See Hebrews 10.

Ephesians 2:16 "And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"All that believe and follow Christ now have this access to their creator.

All I can tell you is what the word of God says... and the Apostle to the Gentiles warns us to not be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to Israel... how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ignoring this mystery results in people becoming wise in their own conceits. Not a good thing.

The gospel accounts teach us that their house is left desolate... this is why Paul was raised up, to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

Israel's blindness will remain until the fulness of the Gentiles come in... THEN shall the Deliverer come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB...

Remember Jacob and his twelve sons... that's Israel.

Ignoring the mystery will only result in one thing according to the Apostle to the Gentiles.. and that is that it will result in you becoming wise in your own conceits.

Israel is very special to God.. they're His earthly people who were justified by faith long before the LORD walked this earth. They're all the elect, just as the church of God is the elect in Christ.

 

[Eventide]

Have you ever noticed the sequence of the scriptures...

Specifically, have you ever noticed that after all of Paul's letters to the church of God, that the bible then shifts again to a completely Jewish context.. James, Peter, John.. all Apostles of the circumcision...

Think it's just a coincidence..?

I don't... it's another testimony to the fact that when the Lord is finished building His church, that the focus will once again be on Israel..

The Lord is going to lead that nation to repentance in the worst of times.. and in the end they're going to know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and King.

The ancient OT story of Joseph shows this in miraculous detail.. he was sold by his own brethren to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver... goes from the pit to the prison to the throne.. reveals the coming famine.. is given a Gentile bride while in a Gentile land.. and wouldn't you know... who comes looking for sustenance when the famine does hit..

That's right... his brethren... and they don't even know it's him.. but in the end he does reveal himself to them and JACOB learns late in his life that the son of his old age is alive and ruler over all.. the very one who was deceived into thinking that he was dead because of his coat dipped in blood.

Amazing stuff folks.. and it's all been told over and over again from the beginning.

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Perhaps the largest stumblingblock which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Israel is an EARTHLY entity with many earthly ordinances...

The church of God is a HEAVENLY entity with our citizenship being in heaven...

People read Matthew 24 and immediately think that its context is the church of God, but it's not... it speaks of those who are in Judaea and that their flight doesn't happen on the sabbath... now think for a minute who this applies to..

Then, in the Revelation... who do we see being with child and protected in the wilderness ?

That's right.. ISRAEL.

Israel will be taken through the great tribulation which is often described as the time of Jacob's trouble.

Remember Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night and then in the morning of that Day the sun rose upon him..?

The night is far spent and the day (of the LORD) is at hand.

Which category would you place the Apostles in, the Church of God or Israel of God?


JLB

 

[Eventide]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Perhaps the largest stumblingblock which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Israel is an EARTHLY entity with many earthly ordinances...

The church of God is a HEAVENLY entity with our citizenship being in heaven...

People read Matthew 24 and immediately think that its context is the church of God, but it's not... it speaks of those who are in Judaea and that their flight doesn't happen on the sabbath... now think for a minute who this applies to..

Then, in the Revelation... who do we see being with child and protected in the wilderness ?

That's right.. ISRAEL.

Israel will be taken through the great tribulation which is often described as the time of Jacob's trouble.

Remember Jacob, the one who wrestled with God all night and then in the morning of that Day the sun rose upon him..?

The night is far spent and the day (of the LORD) is at hand.

Which category would you place the Apostles in, the Church of God or Israel of God?


JLB

Excellent question imo;

I believe the scriptures show us a dual citizenship of those who are Israelites and who are also members of the body of Christ.. like the Apostles, and even the Jewish believers in Christ during that staggering transitional period when Israel was cut off and the gospel went out to the nations.

Paul was like this.. an Israelite and he also had Roman citizenship. That's more likened to Jew and Gentile perhaps but hopefully you can see the point.

 

[Eventide]

Thy will be done on EARTH, as it is in HEAVEN..

It's mind boggling to me to see all that this simple verse says when you think of the bible in its entire context.. and how longsuffering and patient God is with His creation..

His will shall be done on EARTH in that Day, in the Day of the Lord, when He comes with thousands and thousands of His saints, and when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

At the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Perhaps the largest stumblingblock which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

So that you are not confused and stumble over this stumbling block, by your own words I think it would be best for you to, in fact make a distinction which catagory The Apostles are in, The Church of God or The Israel of God.

That way we could know where you are coming from in your post's.


Thanks, JLB

 

[reba]

There is no "the great tribulation"

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Yup and not one verse says "THE great tribulation." Christians through the ages have had great tribulation.

 

[Eventide]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Perhaps the largest stumblingblock which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

So that you are not confused and stumble over this stumbling block, by your own words I think it would be best for you to, in fact make a distinction which catagory The Apostles are in, The Church of God or The Israel of God.

That way we could know where you are coming from in your post's.


Thanks, JLB

I tried to make it clear that I believe that men like the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ enjoy dual citizenship.. iow they're both the Israel of God and the church of God.. they had the unique experience of tasting earthly things AND heavenly things... obviously this doesn't apply to all of Israel.. iow, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not members of the body of Christ which is the church of God.. their entire citizenship consisted of the seemingly endless ordinances under the dispensation of the Law and the Prophets etc..

I could be wrong... simply sharing my thoughts on these staggering thoughts.

That's where I'm coming from

 

[Eventide]

The Apostles of the Lamb...

However... if I had to chose only one.. it would be the Israel of God... simply because there are TWELVE Apostles to the circumcision and only ONE Apostle to the Gentiles, or the church of God.

This imo is an often overlooked fact of the scriptures..

Matthew teaches that in the REGENERATION, when the Son of man shall sit upon the throne of His glory, that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL. This is also affirmed in the gospel of Luke.

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

I tried to make it clear that I believe that men like the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ enjoy dual citizenship..

Sorry, Brother, but that contradicts your very bold and clear statement that says -

Perhaps the largest stumbling block which confuses many about the end times is the complete failure to make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God.

It seems that you yourself have failed to "completely" make a distinction between The Church of God and the Israel of God.

Until you do, you by your own words will be confused about the end times.


JLB

 

[reba]

Lets remember differences of opinion are OK... Be careful in the discussions we are brothers and sisters in the Lord... moderator


2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.