TRUE HOLINESS

[George Muller]

May I ask why you ignored the scriptures I posted that show us one of the purposes of the law is to give us knowledge of sin? Why do you ignore those?

Again your post seem to repeat the same point? But without making any biblical sense? It is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness. The law written upon the heart is what led Muller to do all those Godly things. Not legalism not the "written code" but the Spirit of God. I am sure that is was the self-willed legalist who through their wicked hearts and whitewashed religion brought such ungodly things into the church, as it always is.

 

[George Muller]

Now I am not sure what point you "think" you are making, you seem to have little or no understanding of the purpose of the law, its effect on the flesh or how sin is overcome through the Cross? I suggest you stop trying to teach others and humble yourself that those who have been crucified with the Lord, might be able to teach you.

But once again George Muller, your doctrine teaches that man has NO CHIOCE in the matter. He can't accept or reject the Gospel of Grace. God hasn't CHOSEN them to salvation. Once again, I say, Talk to GOD about it.

Why do you keep preaching grace to men you do not believe have been regenerated?

And why is your doctrine so religious and legalist?

Well again you intentionally bare false witness, I guess "free-will" has its fruits? I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know this don't "itch" the ears, and the truth often upsets the religion of man, but repent and surrender all that "self-will" and the fruits of righteousness will grow unto eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

May I ask why you ignored the scriptures I posted that show us one of the purposes of the law is to give us knowledge of sin? Why do you ignore those?

[...]
It is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness. The law written upon the heart is what led Muller to do all those Godly things. Not legalism not the "written code" but the Spirit of God.
[...]

Surely. But why do you instantly label everyone else who gets convicted of sin by the written code and then seeks to remedy that sin by the Spirit of God a cursed self-willed legalist with a wicked heart hiding behind a whitewashed tomb? The written word tells us to not to judge unfairly this way.

But the main point here is your doctrine says what Muller did would actually increase the favoritism going on in his congregation, not end it. How do you explain your doctrine in the case of the real George Muller? Was he operating as a cursed legalist when he made a decision to end sinful behavior in his church because of what is written in the law? And do you stand by your contention that it actually made the situation worse for Mr. Muller?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now I am not sure what point you "think" you are making, you seem to have little or no understanding of the purpose of the law, its effect on the flesh or how sin is overcome through the Cross? I suggest you stop trying to teach others and humble yourself that those who have been crucified with the Lord, might be able to teach you.

But once again George Muller, your doctrine teaches that man has NO CHIOCE in the matter. He can't accept or reject the Gospel of Grace. God hasn't CHOSEN them to salvation. Once again, I say, Talk to GOD about it.

Why do you keep preaching grace to men you do not believe have been regenerated?

And why is your doctrine so religious and legalist?

Well again you intentionally bare false witness, I guess "free-will" has its fruits? I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know this don't "itch" the ears, and the truth often upsets the religion of man, but repent and surrender all that "self-will" and the fruits of righteousness will grow unto eternal life.

Apparently the real George Muller needed the written code to be holy.

When Mr. Muller heeded what was written in the written code he was showing that he had been crucified with Christ. But you say it was showing him to be a cursed legalist, and which only made his sin worse, I mean if you want to judge him the same way you judge everyone else who sees what's in the written code and then obeys it.

 

[Elijah674]

Now I am not sure what point you "think" you are making, you seem to have little or no understanding of the purpose of the law, its effect on the flesh or how sin is overcome through the Cross? I suggest you stop trying to teach others and humble yourself that those who have been crucified with the Lord, might be able to teach you.

But once again George Muller, your doctrine teaches that man has NO CHIOCE in the matter. He can't accept or reject the Gospel of Grace. God hasn't CHOSEN them to salvation. Once again, I say, Talk to GOD about it.

Why do you keep preaching grace to men you do not believe have been regenerated?

And why is your doctrine so religious and legalist?

Well again you intentionally bare false witness, I guess "free-will" has its fruits? I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know this don't "itch" the ears, and the truth often upsets the religion of man, but repent and surrender all that "self-will" and the fruits of righteousness will grow unto eternal life.

Apparently the real George Muller needed the written code to be holy.

When Mr. Muller heeded what was written in the written code he was showing that he had been crucified with Christ. But you say it was showing him to be a cursed legalist, and which only made his sin worse, I mean if you want to judge him the same way you judge everyone else who sees what's in the written code and then obeys it.

Now if you can just get the right Commandment in the right place, you could make a good preacher of Holly/ness!;)

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see George, what you're missing in Paul's teaching about the law is it is reliance on the written code to make one holy that doesn't make one holy and earns them the label of 'legalist'. Knowing what the law says and doing it does not instantly make you a legalist depending on his own goodness to be justified before God. In fact, God expects you to know and fulfill the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Take 'faith in Christ' out of that...that is when you have the cursed legalist you are talking about.

And that is hardly the problem we have pervading the church today. I wish the church even knew enough about the law to be legalistic about it. But as it is, because of the lack of knowledge of the law, many in the church don't even know James' is making so many references to specific laws in his letter to somehow turn those laws into legalistic observances bereft of the Spirit. I wish we had that problem instead of the hyper-grace problem we have. At least then they'd be one step toward the death by law that is required of every true son/daughter of God and which leads them to the grace of Christ. As it is now, hyper-grace thoroughly insulates them from the conviction of the written code.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well again you intentionally bare false witness, I guess "free-will" has its fruits? I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know this don't "itch" the ears, and the truth often upsets the religion of man, but repent and surrender all that "self-will" and the fruits of righteousness will grow unto eternal life.

Apparently the real George Muller needed the written code to be holy.

When Mr. Muller heeded what was written in the written code he was showing that he had been crucified with Christ. But you say it was showing him to be a cursed legalist, and which only made his sin worse, I mean if you want to judge him the same way you judge everyone else who sees what's in the written code and then obeys it.

Now if you can just get the right Commandment in the right place, you could make a good preacher of Holly/ness!;)

--Elijah

I think that's called a back-handed compliment.

I'll take it. Thank you.

I know you law folk don't get near the respect you deserve. I admire your tenacity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.

I see a capturing of man's will in the Bible, not an end of it:

"...taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ..." (2 Corinthians 10:5 NASB)


We choose whether or not we will submit to the righteousness of God or not:

"...just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness...

A choice that results in holiness:

"...resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:19 NASB)


I see choice here--free will. Not robotic spiritualism. That is the gospel I see in the Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

face palm. big FACE PALM.@ jethro bodine we had a study on james at annual training and the first thing I say to the chaplain is this" hey theres the torah in this. he is quoting moses". well duh its written jewish Christians that knew the torah and should be doing what the loving nature that it had in it.

the tanach was the only scripture for correction the letters and epistles and the gospel weren't cannonised. they were orally passed unto the church until penned(the gospels) the letters were passed as written.

 

[George Muller]

I see a capturing of man's will in the Bible, not an end of it:

"...taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ..." (2 Corinthians 10:5 NASB)

Not sure what you think it means to be crucified, and of course salvation from beginning to end is to walk in the Will of God. Yes one can "choose" to disobey, that's called free-will. But all obedience is to walk in the will of the Spirit.

 

[George Muller]

Now I am not sure what point you "think" you are making, you seem to have little or no understanding of the purpose of the law, its effect on the flesh or how sin is overcome through the Cross? I suggest you stop trying to teach others and humble yourself that those who have been crucified with the Lord, might be able to teach you.

But once again George Muller, your doctrine teaches that man has NO CHIOCE in the matter. He can't accept or reject the Gospel of Grace. God hasn't CHOSEN them to salvation. Once again, I say, Talk to GOD about it.

Why do you keep preaching grace to men you do not believe have been regenerated?

And why is your doctrine so religious and legalist?

Well again you intentionally bare false witness, I guess "free-will" has its fruits? I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know this don't "itch" the ears, and the truth often upsets the religion of man, but repent and surrender all that "self-will" and the fruits of righteousness will grow unto eternal life.

Apparently the real George Muller needed the written code to be holy.

When Mr. Muller heeded what was written in the written code he was showing that he had been crucified with Christ. But you say it was showing him to be a cursed legalist, and which only made his sin worse, I mean if you want to judge him the same way you judge everyone else who sees what's in the written code and then obeys it.

Well of course Muller obeyed the law written upon the heart, and his Godliness was a product of grace. Just as the scriptures declare in clear and absolute terms;

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[George Muller]

You see George, what you're missing in Paul's teaching about the law is it is reliance on the written code to make one holy that doesn't make one holy and earns them the label of 'legalist'. Knowing what the law says and doing it does not instantly make you a legalist depending on his own goodness to be justified before God. In fact, God expects you to know and fulfill the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Take 'faith in Christ' out of that...that is when you have the cursed legalist you are talking about.

And that is hardly the problem we have pervading the church today. I wish the church even knew enough about the law to be legalistic about it. But as it is, because of the lack of knowledge of the law, many in the church don't even know James' is making so many references to specific laws in his letter to somehow turn those laws into legalistic observances bereft of the Spirit. I wish we had that problem instead of the hyper-grace problem we have. At least then they'd be one step toward the death by law that is required of every true son/daughter of God and which leads them to the grace of Christ. As it is now, hyper-grace thoroughly insulates them from the conviction of the written code.

Well of course a legalist, would have your opinion. But the scriptures are in conflict with your opinion.

For "legalism" produces nothing but hypocrisy and sinful lust and desires, which mans religion covers in the fig leaves of self-righteousness and white paint of the Pharisees.

It is grace and grace alone that delivers from sin, it is the law that produces sinful desires in the flesh.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[George Muller]

Well again you intentionally bare false witness, I guess "free-will" has its fruits? I have promoted the holiness of being crucified with Christ, and death to mans will. Now this is the true gospel and their is no other gospel.
1Co 2:1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know this don't "itch" the ears, and the truth often upsets the religion of man, but repent and surrender all that "self-will" and the fruits of righteousness will grow unto eternal life.

Apparently the real George Muller needed the written code to be holy.

When Mr. Muller heeded what was written in the written code he was showing that he had been crucified with Christ. But you say it was showing him to be a cursed legalist, and which only made his sin worse, I mean if you want to judge him the same way you judge everyone else who sees what's in the written code and then obeys it.

Now if you can just get the right Commandment in the right place, you could make a good preacher of Holly/ness!;)

--Elijah

The law made NOTHING PERFECT, but the bringing in of a better hope did.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This is the only "true holiness" all else is false.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[JLB]

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This is the only "true holiness" all else is false.

Amen George!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see George, what you're missing in Paul's teaching about the law is it is reliance on the written code to make one holy that doesn't make one holy and earns them the label of 'legalist'. Knowing what the law says and doing it does not instantly make you a legalist depending on his own goodness to be justified before God. In fact, God expects you to know and fulfill the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Take 'faith in Christ' out of that...that is when you have the cursed legalist you are talking about.

And that is hardly the problem we have pervading the church today. I wish the church even knew enough about the law to be legalistic about it. But as it is, because of the lack of knowledge of the law, many in the church don't even know James' is making so many references to specific laws in his letter to somehow turn those laws into legalistic observances bereft of the Spirit. I wish we had that problem instead of the hyper-grace problem we have. At least then they'd be one step toward the death by law that is required of every true son/daughter of God and which leads them to the grace of Christ. As it is now, hyper-grace thoroughly insulates them from the conviction of the written code.

Well of course a legalist, would have your opinion. But the scriptures are in conflict with your opinion.

For "legalism" produces nothing but hypocrisy and sinful lust and desires, which mans religion covers in the fig leaves of self-righteousness and white paint of the Pharisees.

It is grace and grace alone that delivers from sin, it is the law that produces sinful desires in the flesh.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The real George Muller saw what the written code said not to do and obeyed it. How is it you did not know he was a legalist? I think that's kind of funny since you chose to use his name as your screen name, you who are so opposed to legalism.

 

[George Muller]

You see George, what you're missing in Paul's teaching about the law is it is reliance on the written code to make one holy that doesn't make one holy and earns them the label of 'legalist'. Knowing what the law says and doing it does not instantly make you a legalist depending on his own goodness to be justified before God. In fact, God expects you to know and fulfill the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Take 'faith in Christ' out of that...that is when you have the cursed legalist you are talking about.

And that is hardly the problem we have pervading the church today. I wish the church even knew enough about the law to be legalistic about it. But as it is, because of the lack of knowledge of the law, many in the church don't even know James' is making so many references to specific laws in his letter to somehow turn those laws into legalistic observances bereft of the Spirit. I wish we had that problem instead of the hyper-grace problem we have. At least then they'd be one step toward the death by law that is required of every true son/daughter of God and which leads them to the grace of Christ. As it is now, hyper-grace thoroughly insulates them from the conviction of the written code.

Well of course a legalist, would have your opinion. But the scriptures are in conflict with your opinion.

For "legalism" produces nothing but hypocrisy and sinful lust and desires, which mans religion covers in the fig leaves of self-righteousness and white paint of the Pharisees.

It is grace and grace alone that delivers from sin, it is the law that produces sinful desires in the flesh.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The real George Muller saw what the written code said not to do and obeyed it. How is it you did not know he was a legalist? I think that's kind of funny since you chose to use his name as your screen name, you who are so opposed to legalism.

Well I doubt you have studied his work, as I have? Many seem to be unable to understand that "good works" are a product of grace not law. The scriptures are very clear on this issue and cannot be challenged. So I guess since you cannot challenge my points in scripture you seek to challenge my doctrine through the use of this man and His life? I would welcome a debate and discussion about the motives of this Great Man of God. Start a thread on that topic and I will be glad to join that discussion. The reason I am so drawn to Muller is because his confidence was always in the grace of Christ, and his labors poured forth from Gods Mercy.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see George, what you're missing in Paul's teaching about the law is it is reliance on the written code to make one holy that doesn't make one holy and earns them the label of 'legalist'. Knowing what the law says and doing it does not instantly make you a legalist depending on his own goodness to be justified before God. In fact, God expects you to know and fulfill the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Take 'faith in Christ' out of that...that is when you have the cursed legalist you are talking about.

And that is hardly the problem we have pervading the church today. I wish the church even knew enough about the law to be legalistic about it. But as it is, because of the lack of knowledge of the law, many in the church don't even know James' is making so many references to specific laws in his letter to somehow turn those laws into legalistic observances bereft of the Spirit. I wish we had that problem instead of the hyper-grace problem we have. At least then they'd be one step toward the death by law that is required of every true son/daughter of God and which leads them to the grace of Christ. As it is now, hyper-grace thoroughly insulates them from the conviction of the written code.

Well of course a legalist, would have your opinion. But the scriptures are in conflict with your opinion.

For "legalism" produces nothing but hypocrisy and sinful lust and desires, which mans religion covers in the fig leaves of self-righteousness and white paint of the Pharisees.

It is grace and grace alone that delivers from sin, it is the law that produces sinful desires in the flesh.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The real George Muller saw what the written code said not to do and obeyed it. How is it you did not know he was a legalist? I think that's kind of funny since you chose to use his name as your screen name, you who are so opposed to legalism.

Well I doubt you have studied his work, as I have? Many seem to be unable to understand that "good works" are a product of grace not law. The scriptures are very clear on this issue and cannot be challenged. So I guess since you cannot challenge my points in scripture you seek to challenge my doctrine through the use of this man and His life? I would welcome a debate and discussion about the motives of this Great Man of God. Start a thread on that topic and I will be glad to join that discussion. The reason I am so drawn to Muller is because his confidence was always in the grace of Christ, and his labors poured forth from Gods Mercy.

But he did what you've been saying for months makes a person a legalist. He 'looked to the law' and obeyed what he saw written in the law. You say only white-washed legalists do that. I think it's time to humble yourself and admit your doctrine has been wrong, or just stop defending this ridiculous doctrine.

Answer if you want. I'm pretty much done talking about your fringe doctrines about what true spiritualism is. You see I was once in the 'holy roller' church and I know about their misguided doctrines about being 'spiritual'. Your doctrine doesn't understand Paul's teaching about law and Spirit very well at all.

 

[jasoncran]

@jethrobodine, most churches that teach eternal security don't teach this idea of "spiritualism" they often use the torah and other like statements to convict one into repentance.

james McDonald of walk in the word has done this with forgiveness. I guess he is a legalist too since he takes the parables about forgiving and statements of Christ about it and teaches that we ought to forgive one another.

 

[josefnospam]

[MENTION=91415]Ryan[/MENTION] what translation are you quoting from? My bible does not say some of the things you quote. Use what ever translation you want but please Id. it. I don't care for so many different translations as there is no unity, when one says this and another that. Just please ID the translation you use ,The mouse over of a verse comes up in the KJV. God bless................

 

[WIP]

Just a reminder from our ToS...
2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.