TULIP - Irresistible Grace

[JLB]

Thats Salvation, are you an universalist ? The drawn are saved

Apparently you seem to be the only Calvinist here, that believes a Christian is saved before they believe; before they hear and believe the Gospel message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Please show me the scripture that says those who Jesus is drawing are saved.


Believe is the condition that is required for a person to be saved.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:14-15

• A person must believe, in order to be saved.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

• A person must continue to believe in order to continue to be save.

Jesus makes these two points clear -

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = saved.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These in this group did believe with the joy of salvation but when persecution came to them because they were saved, they no longer believe; they did not continue to believe, but fell away.


Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Those drawn in Jn 12:32 are saved. They come unto Christ meaning they become believers.

 

[brightfame52]

Apparently you seem to be the only Calvinist here, that believes a Christian is saved before they believe; before they hear and believe the Gospel message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Drawing is the salvation, conversion process. They become believers, followers. Now are you an universalist ? All dont become believers in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Those drawn in Jn 12:32 are saved. They come unto Christ meaning they become believers.

And if you will peek at the end of the Bible you will see that all kinds of men are actually drawn to Christ.

Yes all people are drawn to Christ.

Being drawn to Christ does not equal salvation.

Those who are drawn must believe.

 

[JLB]

Those drawn in Jn 12:32 are saved. They come unto Christ meaning they become believers.

Sorry but you must be a universalist.

All men are drawn to Christ.

Only those who believe will be saved.

 

[JLB]

Drawing is the salvation, conversion process. They become believers, followers. Now are you an universalist ? All dont become believers in Christ.

Exactly, all who are drawn to Christ are not saved first.

They must believe in order to be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes all people are drawn to Christ.

Being drawn to Christ does not equal salvation.

Those who are drawn must believe.

The all who are drawn to Christ come UNTO HIM and Believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but you must be a universalist.

All men are drawn to Christ.

Only those who believe will be saved.

Those drawn in Jn 12:32 are saved. They come unto Christ meaning they become believers. Thats how we know the all is restricted to the converted.

 

[brightfame52]

Exactly, all who are drawn to Christ are not saved first.

They must believe in order to be saved.

Again, all the drawn become believers, thats what being drawn UNTO Christ means.

John Gill has understanding:

I will draw all men to me; which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him. There were many of the Jews who would not, and did not come to him for life; and who instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him; moreover, in the preceding verse, "a world" is spoken of, whose judgment, or condemnation, was now come; and besides, there was at this time a multitude of souls in hell, who could not, nor never will be, drawn to Christ; and a greater number still there will be at the last day, who, instead of drawing to him in this gracious way and manner, will be bid to depart from him, as having been workers of iniquity. Christ died indeed for all men who are drawn unto him; but this is not true of all men, that are, were, or shall be in the world. Add to this, that the word "men" is not in the text, it is only "all": Beza's most ancient copy, and some others, and the Vulgate Latin version read "all things"; and by "all" are meant, all the elect of God, all the children of God, "that were scattered abroad"; the Persic version reads, "I will draw my friends to me"; it designs some of all sorts of men, of every state, condition, age, sex, and nation, Gentiles as well as Jews, and especially the former; which agrees with the ancient prophecy, Genesis 49:10, and with the context, and the occasion of the words, which was the desire of the Greeks, that were come to the feast, to see Jesus; and which was a specimen of the large numbers of them, that should be drawn to Christ, through the preaching of the Gospel, after his death: the Jews say, that in the time to come, or in the days of the Messiah, all the proselytes shall be "drawn", shall freely become proselytes (e). The allusion here, is to the setting up of a standard or ensign, to gather persons together. Christ's cross is the standard, his love is the banner, and he himself is the ensign, which draw souls to himself, and engage them to enlist themselves under him, and become his volunteers in the day his power; see Isaiah 11:10. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/12-32.htm

 

[Whatever]

Yes all people are drawn to Christ.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

The word draw there is helkō = Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)

From Robertson's Word Pictures:
By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luk_2:34) are repelled by Christ,

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against.

Again, "spoken against" is one word in the Greek antilegō - Present passive participle, continuous action. It is going on today. Nietzsche regarded Jesus Christ as the curse of the race because he spared the weak.

You are interpreting words like "all" and "world" by your modern democratic idea that God must treat all men equal. It is plain that God favored the Jews and not the Egyptians.

I would say millions or billions of people have not been drawn or attracted to Jesus.

 

[Whatever]

Please show me the scripture that says those who Jesus is drawing are saved.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word "draw" there is the same word helkuō that Jesus used in drawing all to Himself.
Jesus says that all those drawn He will raise up at the last day. Sounds like salvation to me.

 

[Whatever]

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14

You just made the point for me. Half the population today have not heard the gospel.
How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? They can't.
And how shall they hear without a preacher or missionary? They can't.
And yet you insist that all of the 7 or so billion people today are drawn to a Jesus - they have never heard of.

As of 2025, there are approximately 2.04 billion Muslims worldwide, making Islam the second largest religion after Christianity. This represents over 25% of the global population.
And Islam rejects the Jesus that was crucified and rose again. So how is Jesus drawing them?

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

The word draw there is helkō = Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)

Correct and that greek word indicates election, its haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

Same word Paul used here 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So no doubt the ones drawn are all the chosen, Christs death ensures their belief of the Truth

 

[JLB]

The all who are drawn to Christ come UNTO HIM and Believe.

Again, all the drawn become believers, thats what being drawn UNTO Christ means.

John Gill has understanding:

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” John 12:32


Where does it say in this verse that “all men” are saved.


That’s universalism.

 

[JLB]

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

The word draw there is helkō = Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively)

From Robertson's Word Pictures:
By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luk_2:34) are repelled by Christ,

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against.

Again, "spoken against" is one word in the Greek antilegō - Present passive participle, continuous action. It is going on today. Nietzsche regarded Jesus Christ as the curse of the race because he spared the weak.

You are interpreting words like "all" and "world" by your modern democratic idea that God must treat all men equal. It is plain that God favored the Jews and not the Egyptians.

I would say millions or billions of people have not been drawn or attracted to Jesus.

So you believe all men are saved?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” John 12:32


And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

It’s God’s will that everyone who believes in the Son may have everlasting life.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47

A person who is drawn must believe in Him to have everlasting life.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:15-16


Believing in Him is the condition required to receive everlasting life.

 

[JLB]

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word "draw" there is the same word helkuō that Jesus used in drawing all to Himself.
Jesus says that all those drawn He will raise up at the last day. Sounds like salvation to me.

Believing is required for everlasting life.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

It’s God’s will that everyone who believes in the Son may have everlasting life.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Those who are drawn must believe in Him, in order to have eternal life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47


The crowds were drawn to Him but most didn’t believe.

 

[Whatever]

It’s God’s will that everyone who believes in the Son may have everlasting life.

Yes, but you also believe that it is God's will that everybody believe in Him.
Once again with reality:
How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? They can't.
And how shall they hear without a preacher or missionary? They can't

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44
Those who are drawn must believe in Him, in order to have eternal life.

But those who are drawn by the Father will believe in Him. That is why Jesus will raise them at the last day.

The crowds were drawn to Him but most didn’t believe.

But they were not drawn by the Father. They were drawn to Him out of curiosity, the free food and the chance to be healed, just like modern faith healers draw people to them.

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

John 2:23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

Many "believed in His name" but Jesus did not commit Himself to them because He knew who really believed and who didn't.
When John says "many believed in His name" I think he is just reporting what the people were saying, not what was in all their hearts.

 

[Whatever]

So you believe all men are saved?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” John 12:32

No, I understand the language in the text.
We know that "all" can mean:
All without exception (every man without exception)
All without distinction (all kinds or all manner of)

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil:
Is every evil act done because of the love of money? Is that why Cain killed Able?
All modern translations:
New King James
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil
ESV
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all kinds of men to Myself.”
The Bible tells us that all kinds of men are saved.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

 

[Whatever]

Correct and that greek word indicates election, its haireō:

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

The Greek word we get our "elect" from is G1588 - eklektos = select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
In the King James it is translated "elect" or "chosen"

 

[JLB]

Yes, but you also believe that it is God's will that everybody believe in Him.
Once again with reality:
How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? They can't.
And how shall they hear without a preacher or missionary? They can't

I agree.

They must hear and believe the message of salvation in order to be saved.