TULIP - Irresistible Grace

[JLB]

The ones excluded are those who do not believe. How many times do I have to answer that?

Nobody in the world believes until they hear the gospel and choose to believe.

The world refers to the unsaved people of the world, and they are unsaved BECAUSE they do not believe.

God’s plan of salvation includes the world. Why?

Because God loves the world and desires for the world to believe and be saved.

No one is excluded from the world is excluded.

If God excluded those who don’t believe then all would be excluded from His plan of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Because God loves the world and desires for the world to believe and be saved.

No one is excluded from the world is excluded.

The Non elect are excluded, for in scripture Gods Love is joined with Election, so whenever speaking of Gods Love, it must involve an Chosen People and in Christ. Deut 7:6-8

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the
house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

NT Rom 9:11-13

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob here, the object of election is Loved,

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jesus is specifically stated to Love His Own in the world Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

His own equates to His own elect Lk 18:7

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

And Gods Love is exclusively in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Non elect are not in Christ Jesus, never have been, nor will be. They as Esau was are excluded from Gods Love.

Please keep this in mind when you reference Gods Love Jn 3:16

 

[Whatever]

God’s plan of salvation includes the world. Why?

Because that is where people live.

If God excluded those who don’t believe then all would be excluded from His plan of salvation.

But you are forgetting God's foreknowledge. Everybody starts out not believing, but at sometime in their life they will be exposed to the gospel and some will accept it and some will reject it.
When God sent His Son so that all those who will believe will be saved, God already knew who those were who would believe and who wouldn't. If God foreknew that Joe Blow would reject the gospel, then God didn't have Joe Blow in mind when He sent His Son.

 

[JLB]

Because that is where people live.

The context is love; God loves the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Is there anyone in the world of unsaved unbelievers that is excluded from His love?

 

[Whatever]

Is there anyone in the world of unsaved unbelievers that is excluded from His love?

Leviticus 26:11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.

Abhor = to detest; by implication to reject: - abhor, fail, lothe, vilely cast away.

Without the tabernacle being among them, God would not love them.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

hates - H8130 - saw-nay' - A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

It makes sense to me that the wicked and the one who loves violence is excluded from God's love.

 

[JLB]

Leviticus 26:11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.

Abhor = to detest; by implication to reject: - abhor, fail, lothe, vilely cast away.

Without the tabernacle being among them, God would not love them.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

hates - H8130 - saw-nay' - A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

It makes sense to me that the wicked and the one who loves violence is excluded from God's love.

The wicked are sinners.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

For your reference below; sinner = wicked people




Every possible way you shake it out, TULIP is an unbiblical doctrine of man.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

The wicked are sinners.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Yeah but not all wicked sinners are Loved by God Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The sinners in Rom 5:8 are the elect !

 

[Whatever]

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Yes, Christ died for us, not the whole world. Who is the us?
Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Dying means laying down His life. Did He lay His life down for everybody without exception?

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

It is obvious that mankind is divided into sheep and goats. Jesus laid down His life for the sheep.
Whether God loved the goats or not is irrelevant. He did not lay down His life for them.

Matthew_10:16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

There are also sheep and wolves. Jesus laid down His life for the sheep.

John 10:8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

So the world consists of goats, wolves, thieves, robbers and sheep. Jesus laid down His life for the sheep.

 

[JLB]

Yes, Christ died for us, not the whole world.

We already know that Christ was sent by God and died on the cross for the world.

So already, you are rejecting the words of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• but that the world through Him might be saved.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Who is the us?

Us is the world of sinners Christ died for.


But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

[brightfame52]

We already know that Christ was sent by God and died on the cross for the world.

So already, you are rejecting the words of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• but that the world through Him might be saved.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2




Us is the world of sinners Christ died for.


But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

The us and world, sinners in those passages are the elect.

 

[JLB]

The us and world, sinners in those passages are the elect.

That’s Universalism.

The world is not the elect. Not even Calvinist’s believe that.

 

[Whatever]

We already know that Christ was sent by God and died on the cross for the world.

So already, you are rejecting the words of Jesus Christ.

I'm not rejecting the words of Jesus Christ. I am rejecting your improper interpretation of His words. When Jesus specifically talks about laying down His life, He says He does if for His sheep. Then He tells others "you are not of my sheep."

Your interpretation of Jesus is a God who desires things that He cannot accomplish. That makes Him impotent - The quality or condition of being impotent; lack of strength or power. That is not the Jesus I see in the Bible.

 

[Whatever]

That’s Universalism.
The world is not the elect. Not even Calvinist’s believe that.

It is only universal in the sense that Jesus saved every single person He came to save.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Your (false) Jesus cannot say that. He looses billions of people.

 

[JLB]

I'm not rejecting the words of Jesus Christ. I am rejecting your improper interpretation of His words. When Jesus specifically talks about laying down His life, He says He does if for His sheep. Then He tells others "you are not of my sheep."

Your interpretation of Jesus is a God who desires things that He cannot accomplish. That makes Him impotent - The quality or condition of being impotent; lack of strength or power. That is not the Jesus I see in the Bible.

Here is the truth:

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

The scriptures teach us that God desires all men to be saved.

Why? Because He loves the people of the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[JLB]

It is only universal in the sense that Jesus saved every single person He came to save.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Your (false) Jesus cannot say that. He looses billions of people.

Do you believe “the world” refers to the elect in John 3:16?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[brightfame52]

That’s Universalism.

The world is not the elect. Not even Calvinist’s believe that.

Its the universalism of the elect, they are from every ethnic group out of the world, besides the jews

 

[JLB]

The Non elect are excluded,

Sorry but Jesus teaches us the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• God so loved the world

God loves the unsaved sinners of the world and wants them to become saved by believing in Christ Jesus.

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Elect or unelect are not mentioned.

You project these phrases into scripture where they are not mentioned.

You change the meaning of biblical words to create your own manmade theology.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but Jesus teaches us the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• God so loved the world

God loves the unsaved sinners of the world and wants them to become saved by believing in Christ Jesus.

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Elect or unelect are not mentioned.

You project these phrases into scripture where they are not mentioned.

You change the meaning of biblical words to create your own manmade theology.



JLB

Jn 3:16 is limited to the Church, thats the exclusive world God so loved Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

And the Church are the Chosen/Elect of Eph 1:4

 

[Whatever]

Do you believe “the world” refers to the elect in John 3:16?

No. I think world means the Earth. But there are 2 parts to that passage.
God so loved the world ---> Earth or the whole creation
Sent His Son so that whosoever believes shall not perish ---> all humans in the world that believe.

Lets take one passage and translate it the way you believe.

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

JLB's version
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn every human being, but that every human being through Him might be saved.

It that is the true meaning, then the Father and the Son both failed. Not every human being is saved.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

God so loved the world, but the disciples were not of the world, so did God not love the disciples?

 

[Whatever]

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

The scriptures teach us that God desires all men to be saved.

No, you interpret this one verse to mean that God desires all men to be saved.
In verse 1, Paul says:
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
And then in the next verse (2) Paul shows that he means "all kinds of men" by mentioning one kind ---> Kings.

You have to change your view to mean that God desires that every single person have a chance to hear the gospel and make up their own mind.
But with either view God's desire does not come to pass.
Not all men are saved
Not all men have heard the gospel and chosen yes or no.

Genesis 18:14 Is anything too hard for the LORD?

You would have to answer YES. He desires that all men be saved, but He cannot do it.