TULIP - Irresistible Grace

[JLB]

You make disciples out of the saved, the regenerated.

Of course.

By disciples of Jesus Christ are taught their things He taught the Apostles.

 

[JLB]

So you are saying that every human being:
Natives in the Amazon Jungle before any Christian went there.
Australian Aborigines before the English discovered them 5 or 6 hundred years ago.
The Mayan's, Aztec's etc, etc, for thousands of years back.
All had angels preach to them and if not that, God gave them all dreams and visions.

I’m saying what the scriptures say.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God loves mankind; the unsaved people of the world, and desires for them to be saved.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17


The reason I believe that Irresistible Grace is unbiblical is…

From my opening post -

Let’s examine the core meaning of Irresistible Grace which is summed up in this phrase …

• if God loves you and wants you in His family,

 

[brightfame52]

Do angels preach the gospel?

Does the Lord give dreams and visions whereby He speaks to people?

Technology is one way, however God is not limited to man’s technology.

The Lord commissioned His disciples to teach their disciples the things He taught.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20

Everyevent in history is something that God has decreed will take place. In eternity, God ordained everything that happens in time. It is not merely that God knows what is going to happen; He has decreed what is going to happen. The Scriptures make this very clear when they speak of God as the one: “…who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Eph.1:11).

God always accomplishes that which pleases Him. God says: “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure” (Is.46:10).

Here God makes clear that He is not only able to do all that He pleases, but that He actually accomplishes all of His pleasure. Every person He desires to save He saves. Every event He desires to happen will actually take place.

God’s Purpose with Adam (3): God’s Purpose That Adam Fall – The Standard Bearer Magazine by Reformed Free Publishing Association | RFPA

sb.rfpa.org

 

[brightfame52]

Of course.

By disciples of Jesus Christ are taught their things He taught the Apostles.

Okay so Preaching the Gospel is for the saved. When Jesus sent out the 12 Matt 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This wasn't to go out and try to get people saved, but it was to go out and instruct, and disciple people Jesus had already saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here are two passages that actually tell us about God's desire, pleasure

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Your interpretation of certain verses makes God a liar. He accomplishes what He desires, but He certainly does not accomplish the salvation of "all the unsaved people of the world."

Even before Jesus came and gave His life a ransom for many, there were millions that perished like those in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Irresistible grace:
Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Whatever....
WHY do you post ONLY from the OT??
Surely there must be a reason for this.

Could the reason be that the OT was written in different forms of literature and one of them is poetic?

Are you aware that in the people of the OT ATTRIBUTED EVERYTHING to God....even what God did not directly cause.

God revealed Himself to mankind gradually.
His first revelation was to a people that were living with other populations that worshipped a number of gods...not just one.

IF the OT statements about God were completely true and perfectly representative of Him....we would surely be able to state that the God of the OT is different than the God that Jesus reveals in the NT.


Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God.
God said, on Mt. Tabor, LISTEN TO HIM.

So let's see if irresistible grace is in the NEW TESTAMENT:

Matthew 23:37
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling

Apparently, Jesus believes God's grace can be resisted.


Matthew 22:4-5
4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'
5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another * to his business,

God invited...apparently His grace could be resisted.


John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling * to come to Me so that you may have life.

Jesus explains that HE is life....but the Jews were not willing to go to Him.
Apparently grace is resistable.

If Jesus knew about predestination...surely He would not have complained about those that were not willing since surely God predestinated them to be unwilling.

Perhaps predestination is an incorrect doctrine?
And grace CAN be resisted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyevent in history is something that God has decreed will take place. In eternity, God ordained everything that happens in time. It is not merely that God knows what is going to happen; He has decreed what is going to happen. The Scriptures make this very clear when they speak of God as the one: “…who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Eph.1:11).

God always accomplishes that which pleases Him. God says: “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure” (Is.46:10).

Here God makes clear that He is not only able to do all that He pleases, but that He actually accomplishes all of His pleasure. Every person He desires to save He saves. Every event He desires to happen will actually take place.

God’s Purpose with Adam (3): God’s Purpose That Adam Fall – The Standard Bearer Magazine by Reformed Free Publishing Association | RFPA

sb.rfpa.org

Of course God can do what He wants to do.

BUT WHERE in the New Testament does it state that man cannot resist God's grace?
WHERE in the NT does it state that God chooses INDIVIDUALS for salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay so Preaching the Gospel is for the saved. When Jesus sent out the 12 Matt 28:18-20



This wasn't to go out and try to get people saved, but it was to go out and instruct, and disciple people Jesus had already saved.

Why teach those that should already know?

I thought you believed that the unsaved cannot understand God.
So does this mean the saved should be able to understand God?
So why teach and preach?

Jesus sent out the Apostles on the Great Commission to save men in ALL NATIONS.
To teach them HOW TO BE SAVED.
To offer salvation TO EVERYONE.

So that WHOSOEVER believes will be saved.

It's the Calvinist that posts
Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So, you see, BF, according to YOUR theology, everyone will already KNOW THE LORD and will not have to be taught....

So please explain WHY Jesus is telling the Apostles to teach the already saved when Jeremiah states that it will not be necessary.

 

[brightfame52]

Of course God can do what He wants to do.

BUT WHERE in the New Testament does it state that man cannot resist God's grace?
WHERE in the NT does it state that God chooses INDIVIDUALS for salvation?

Go look for it, I dont need to see quotes like that

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

Why teach those that should already know?

Ask God, He sent out Teachers

 

[GodsGrace]

Go look for it, I dont need to see quotes like that

No use to look for such quotes BF.
They do NOT exist.

Man CAN resist grace...it's throughout the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace



Ask God, He sent out Teachers

I'm asking YOU BF.

YOU are the one that is not properly understanding why Jesus sent out the Apostles.

Jesus sent out the Apostles to TEACH....
To teach what?
HOW TO BE SAVED.

It's the only reason for the gospels and the letters.
There is NO OTHER REASON for the NT.

In Calvinism the NT is totally useless.

 

[brightfame52]

No use to look for such quotes BF.
They do NOT exist.

Man CAN resist grace...it's throughout the NT.

Then why ask me, stop wasting my time, for I will not be explaining anything to you friend

 

[brightfame52]

I'm asking YOU BF.

YOU are the one that is not properly understanding why Jesus sent out the Apostles.

Jesus sent out the Apostles to TEACH....
To teach what?
HOW TO BE SAVED.

It's the only reason for the gospels and the letters.
There is NO OTHER REASON for the NT.

In Calvinism the NT is totally useless.

No ask God because I will not explain anything to you, your best bet is just to read my post

 

[GodsGrace]

No ask God because I will not explain anything to you, your best bet is just to read my post

God has already explained to me BF.
We all have HIS WORD that we can read and understand how God likes to relate to mankind.

When I ask YOU something, it's just to show that you will not find YOUR reply in scripture because it does not exist there.

It only exists in the minds of the reformed/calvinist believers.
You have been taught by MEN....
NOT BY GOD.

God loves all His creation.
John 3:16

Why would GOD create something He does not love?
Would YOU buy a car that you HATE?
No. How much less would GOD create something that He does not love.

But Adam, being our federal head, went ahead and ruined his covenant with God.
He ruined our relationship with God,
with ourselves,
with each other,
and with nature.

So, God, being a JUST GOD, predestinated for us a PLAN for salvation.
Yes, THAT was predestined from Genesis 3:15.

BUT the PLAN was for ALL PEOPLE....
those that would accept the conditions God set for each of us to obtain this salvation.

The plan is:
1. BELIEVE IN GOD.
2. OBEY GOD.

Very simple BF.

It is MAN that has complicated the process and even CHANGED the process.
Men like JOHN CALVIN, and even the man he so loved...AUGUSTINE.

We should return to reading the New Testament....
understand the NT....
and live by that...THE WORD OF GOD.

Not the word of man.

"LISTEN TO HIM"
Matthew 17:5 God on Mt. Tabor

Hebrews 12:25 warns that we are to LISTEN TO HIM
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB



You make disciples out of the saved, the regenerated. Jesus is commissioning them to be instrumental in converting His elect that He has saved and the Spirit has regenerated, they now need teaching, instruction.

Again,,,,you refer to the Great Commission.

WHY would God need to teach those He CHOSE to be saved?
Doesn't God predestinate them to KNOW that they are saved and to
understand scripture?

It's what YOU believe BF that is being questioned...
not what the rest of Christianity believes.

ONLY the reformed/calvinist believe what they do.
NO OTHER DENOMINATION believes these incorrect teachings of MEN.

There must surely be a reason....

The NT debunks each and every doctrine taught in the acronym of TULIP.

Each and every one.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you are saying that every human being:
Natives in the Amazon Jungle before any Christian went there.
Australian Aborigines before the English discovered them 5 or 6 hundred years ago.
The Mayan's, Aztec's etc, etc, for thousands of years back.
All had angels preach to them and if not that, God gave them all dreams and visions.

That's what you call wishful thinking.

Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the LORD!

David is almost bragging that God gave His Word and statutes to Israel and has not done that for any other nation.
Paul seems to agree:
Act 14:16 who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways.

Yes now, that the Messiah has come He commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel, but that does not compute that God sent all these people mentioned above special miraculous revelation.

Whatever....what JLB is referring to might be:

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


It's important to read and understand the NT if we want to be followers of Jesus and not followers of MEN.
The reformed/calvinist believers do not get to put God in a box.

Those that know about Jesus and refuse Him will be lost.

But Jesus saved, by His UNLIMITED ATONEMENT,,,every single person on earth that becomes saved....even those that never heard of Jesus, past, present and future.

If you recall,,,there are many in the OT that were saved BY FAITH.
Had they known about Jesus?
NO.

But they had faith in Yaweh....in GOD.
Is Jesus God?
Yes.

We cannot separate the Godhead...it is one united being in 3 separate persons.

JESUS IS GOD.

A person who believes in GOD and does not know Jesus,,,is also believing, by necessity, in JESUS...who is GOD.

Romans 1 teaches:

1. God has been known since the creation of the world.

2. This knowledge has been known by mankind.

3. God made His presence known to them.

4. Through His attributes.

5. His divine power is clearly seen. (God is able to create...this requires a great being).

6. Men will be without excuse at judgment,,,because ALL MEN have had the opportunity to know God exists.


As to your verse Acts 14:16 it shows:

1. God ALLOWED men to go in their own way.
This is FREE WILL.

2. There is only ONE TRUE GOD.
It is THAT God that must be worshipped....not an idol.

3. And yet God did good even for those nations that rejected the one true God...because He is a loving God, merciful and just. And through God's good toward these unbelieving people...He STILL revealed himself through His own witness in nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is directly implied in your theology.

God desires X, but X can only happen if each person cooperates.
Those who don't cooperate trump God's will for X.

The reason you cannot accept is because you do not believe man has free will.

And, thus, much scripture goes misunderstood.

GOD CHOOSES X....

MAN HAS THE FREE WILL TO ACCEPT OR DENY X....WHAT GOD HAS PROPOSED.

Man DOES NOT EVER trump God's will.

BUT MAN HAS FREE WILL.

Reformed/Calvinist theology causes conflict and misunderstanding of plain scripture because MEN
taught and teach that mankind has no free will.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


If God wants ALL MENT TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth....

THEN WHY aren't they saved?
Why aren't they coming to the truth?

Doesn't God know HOW to achieve His desire?

IF you reply that it's because God did not CHOOSE some for salvation....
then you will be creating a CONFLICT in scripture, and stating that God cannot
achieve His goal.

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

God has already explained to me BF.

Then why pray -ntel are you questioning me ?

 

[brightfame52]

Again,,,,you refer to the Great Commission.

WHY would God need to teach those He CHOSE to be saved?
Doesn't God predestinate them to KNOW that they are saved and to
understand scripture?

It's what YOU believe BF that is being questioned...
not what the rest of Christianity believes.

ONLY the reformed/calvinist believe what they do.
NO OTHER DENOMINATION believes these incorrect teachings of MEN.

There must surely be a reason....

The NT debunks each and every doctrine taught in the acronym of TULIP.

Each and every one.

Ask God, He wrote Matt 28

 

[GodsGrace]

That seems to be what Paul says.

Romans 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul separates the creation from the sons of God.

Isaiah 35:1 The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad; the desert shall rejoice and blossom like the crocus;

!!!

The CREATION was also harmed by Adam's sin.
IT will ALSO be set free from the damage caused by Adam's sin.

BUT
Jesus is not SAVING the rocks and the trees and the waters.

THEY DO NOT HAVE A SPIRIT.
They do not REQUIRE salvation.