TULIP - Irresistible Grace

[GodsGrace]

Yes, because Yahweh gave Israel revelation.
Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the LORD!

Psalm79:6 Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You, And on the kingdoms that do not call on Your name.

Jeremiah 10:25 Pour out Your fury on the Gentiles, who do not know You
1 Corinthians 10:20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.

Isaiah 65:11 "But you are those who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who prepare a table for Gad, And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.

What does the above have to do with:
1. Irresistible grace
2. Justice

And you're arguing in circles, as you must surely know.
I'm saying the OT has a lot of poetry,
and you're using the OT to MAYBE try to debunk my request that you use the NT.

But I Do understand that it's difficult for the reformed to use only the NT....

 

[GodsGrace]

I post from whichever passages that make my point.

Right.
And the poetry in the OT suits you BETTER
than the words of JESUS, PAUL, PETER, JAMES and all the writers of the NT.

And the reason is obvious.
It's really difficult for the reformed to use only the NT.
No poetry there...
only facts.

 

[GodsGrace]

That shows you don't really understand TULIP.

Same old tired, boring excuse.

You can't answer so it's ME who must now understand TULIP.
That's pretty funny W....

Read my post again s l o w l y.

I think you must have missed something.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. some of God's grace is resistible.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

"For many are called (invited), but few are chosen (elected)."

The invitation is resistible, but the election is not resistible.

Notice, I did not just post from the OT.

Many are invited.....very good.
But few are chosen.

WHY is the question.
Why are few chosen?

Here is the reason Jesus gave in
Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

1. Not those who cry LORD enter into heaven
but those that do THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

2. Jesus will tell those to depart from Him...
Who? Those who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

See W...no mention of God choosing anyone or even of salvation or being saved.
Jesus wants us TO DO the will of the Father.

TO DO
and active verb which requires our participation.

and

Jesus is admonishing them to not practice lawlessness.
Now why would Jesus do this IF He knew that God predestinated them to practice lawlessness??

Many PREFER to follow the world system...
instead of following God.
And so they are not chosen.

Jesus said WHOEVER wishes to FOLLOW ME.
Another active verb.
TO FOLLOW requires an action that WE must take.
Thus: Free Will to follow or not follow.

 

[brightfame52]

It's synergism BF.
God works and wants us to be saved.

We work and can accept or deny His salvation.

Easy.

So its not Jesus Christ responsibility alone to save them God wants to be saved.

 

[Whatever]

Why are few chosen?

Here is the reason Jesus gave

I don't see anything about those being chosen. I see them not being lawless.
You have this worldly christian idea that anyone and everyone can just obey God's commands and are capable of pleasing God by their good works.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You seem to believe that those people in the Matthew passage were chosen because they pleased God.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

 

[Whatever]

You can't answer so it's ME who must now understand TULIP.

I can't give a coherent answer to a nonsense question.

 

[GodsGrace]

So its not Jesus Christ responsibility alone to save them God wants to be saved.

Of course it's not Jesus' responsibility alone.
What's so difficult to understand about my posts?

IF God wants to save everyone...
then everyone should be saved.

If they aren't, there's a reason.
The reason is that some DO NOT WANT to be saved.

It's called Free Will BF.

 

[brightfame52]

Of course it's not Jesus' responsibility alone.
What's so difficult to understand about my posts?

IF God wants to save everyone...
then everyone should be saved.

If they aren't, there's a reason.
The reason is that some DO NOT WANT to be saved.

It's called Free Will BF.

Then in my opinion that's Idolatry you are promoting, Jesus is the only Saviour Isa 43:11

I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour.

 

[Whatever]

han the words of JESUS

You want the words of Jesus?

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus knew those who did not believe. Then He says "this is why I told you that no one cam come to unless it is granted to him by the Father."
Jesus know that those who did not believe, did not believe because it wasn't granted to them by the Father.

Jesus had another way of saying that:
John_10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

So, no OT poetry, just plain hard facts. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father grants it by making them a sheep and they will follow Him.

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus lays down His life for the sheep and not for goats

Matthew 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The Father has given certain people to Jesus. Jesus calls them sheep. He tells others they are not of His sheep. He says He lays down His life for (atones for - sheds His blood for) the sheep. The sheep will come to Him. In the end the sheep will be separated from the goats.

 

[Whatever]

What does the above have to do with:
1. Irresistible grace
2. Justice

It has to do with the fact that God only gave revelation to Israel - a small number of people - and left the rest of mankind to go their own way. Paul says that what the Gentiles sacrificed, they sacrificed to demons and not to God.
You say that these people got saved by simply believing in Yahweh.

I'm showing they had no revelation of a God called Yahweh. Yes they saw his eternal power and divine nature, that should have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. But Paul says they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

Paul says that at that time they were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)

But you want to put all these people in Heaven.

 

[Whatever]

How about describing what justice is and telling how God is just??

God is perfect and holy, holy, holy, so whatever God does is just. There is no higher authority above God that He has to answer to.

I became a Calvinist when I understood that I need to accept whatever God says no matter what my puny mind thinks about it.

I would think that it was unjust for God to have the Jews to go into Jericho and kill every man, woman and child. Today God would be accused of genocide.

I've learned to say with Paul "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom 11:33)

You feel the need to understand why everything happens.

Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever

 

[Whatever]

Jesus is not SAVING the rocks and the trees and the waters.

THEY DO NOT HAVE A SPIRIT.
They do not REQUIRE salvation.

Then why is the creation groaning?

Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

 

[Whatever]

IF God wants to save everyone...
then everyone should be saved.

If they aren't, there's a reason.
The reason is that some DO NOT WANT to be saved.

And as said by somebody before, man's "free will" can trump God's desire.

Maybe the real reason all aren't saved is God is not trying to save everybody. You are misinterpreting "all."

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see anything about those being chosen.

Thank you.
Neither do I see the words CHOSEN in Matthew 7.
Jesus CLEARLY stated why some are chosen.
Because they are NOT lawless...
because they OBEY God.
I have stated 2 necessary ingredients for salvation:
1. BELIEF IN GOD
2. OBEDIENCE TO GOD

I see them not being lawless.

What?
Jesus said the LAWLESS will not enter into heaven.

You have this worldly christian idea that anyone and everyone can just obey God's commands and are capable of pleasing God by their good works.

Why is doing good works a worldly idea?
You say our good works cannot please God, but the NT states that they do.

Our good works DO please God.
Hebrews 13:16
16 And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
God created us to do good works...to be His hands and feet:
God creates what pleases Him:
Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Our work is for the good pleasure of God:
Philippians 2:12-13
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Our good works glorify God...surely this is pleasing to Him since Jesus says to do this:
Matthew 5:16
16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


God is pleased with our good works and will reward us:
Colossians 3:24
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Agreed.

You seem to believe that those people in the Matthew passage were chosen because they pleased God.

Yes sir.
The persons in Matthew 7 pleased God because they obeyed God.
Jesus said this...not me.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Yes sir.
God is a merciful God....
Paul is stating that God had mercy on whom He will have mercy....
God had mercy on the Israelites.
God had mercy on the Ninevites.
God had mercy on Noah and his family.

Paul was stating, in Romans 9, that God will also have mercy on the Gentiles,,,
even though the Jews do not believe they should be included in the New Covenant.

NOW God will have mercy on the Gentiles too.
As it is His right to do so.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't give a coherent answer to a nonsense question.

I don't ask nonsense questions W....my time is precious and I do not waste it.

I was really posting to Brightfame but you replied.
Here's the entire post again in case you wish to reply to it:

*********************************************************
BF
You don't seem to understand.

YOU are creating a God that is weak and unable to achieve His goals.

IF God wants to save all men....
then all men SHOULD BE SAVED.

BUT
they are NOT.

So something else is at play here that YOU do not want to recognize.

What is at play here is man's Free Will and how it relates to the OP
of the I in TULIP....Irresisstible grace.

IF grace were truly irresistible....ALL MEN WOULD BE SAVED
BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT GOD WANTS.

So, APPARENTLY, BF,,,,grace IS resistible and man has the Free Will
to either ACCEPT God's grace or REJECT it.

You see, reformed theology causes great conflicts in scripture.

Please read carefully and try to understand what the NT teaches.

God wishes that all men be saved...

BUT not all men WANT to be saved.

It is not due to God's weakness that His desire is not fulfilled..
it's due to man's Free Will to REJECT God's grace.

GRACE IS RESISTIBLE.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is perfect and holy, holy, holy, so whatever God does is just. There is no higher authority above God that He has to answer to.

I became a Calvinist when I understood that I need to accept whatever God says no matter what my puny mind thinks about it.

Well W, you're a better man than RC who said:
"RELUCTANTLY I STARTED AND SURRENDERED, BUT WITH MY HEAD NOT MY HEART...
OK, I BELIEVE THIS STUFF, BUT I DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT."
CHOSEN BY GOD
RC SPROUL
PAGE 13

I found a Jesus Who is very loving and merciful and Who desired to make Himself to known to me.
We will never know all about God,,,that is impossible, but He allowed us to know what we need to know to be able to understand Him and follow and love Him. Appeal to mystery is not a good method, generally speaking.

God wants His creation to know how to get saved.
This is the reason Jesus came to us.
To atone for our sins.
To teach us how to attain salvation.
It's the reason for the gospels.

I would think that it was unjust for God to have the Jews to go into Jericho and kill every man, woman and child. Today God would be accused of genocide.

I did explain some of this in another post of mine to you re the OT.
But I do agree that God can do what He will in order to bring about His plan.
We all believe God has a plan...
we just do not all believe that God picks and chooses who will be saved and for no reason.

I've learned to say with Paul "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom 11:33)

Right. He was telling the Jews that the Gentiles were going to be added to the New Covenant.
The Jews were not too happy about this.

You feel the need to understand why everything happens.

No. But I also do not believe that God CAUSES sin to occur.
I do not believe it is God that predestinated murders to happen, the holocaust, etc.
IF this were true, why bother trying to understand that sin nature?
Or the depravity of man? (which all Christians believe but we do not agree on the conclusion).
We would just be able to sign it off to God and be done with it.

Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever

It is possible to know God. The NT teaches this.

John 3:17
17And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

2 Peter 3:18
18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:10
10That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Romans 12:2
2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


and something from the OT just for you:
Jeremiah 9:23-24
Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

Many more W...
God WANTS us to know Him...we are, after all, made in His image.

 

[GodsGrace]

And as said by somebody before, man's "free will" can trump God's desire.

Maybe the real reason all aren't saved is God is not trying to save everybody. You are misinterpreting "all."

No,,,you're missing the important point.
You say God is sovereign...and so He is.

But those who believe as you do make God out to be a WEAK God.
Why?
Because, apparently, He cannot do what He desires to do.

1 Timothy 2:4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Here is my question, again, for reflection:
IF God desires all men to be saved...
WHY aren't all men saved?

Is God unable to achieve His desire?

 

[JLB]

Its for the saved to establish them in the truth. The Gospel is foolishness and death to the unsaved lost

Completely and totally false.

Even the Calvinist’s on this Forum don’t believe that nonsense, that Jesus came to save people who were already saved… that the Gospel is for those who are already saved.


It’s hard for me to imaging that the leadership of this Forum would allow you to promote such a heretical claim.

 

[JLB]

So its not Jesus Christ responsibility alone to save them God wants to be saved.

No. It’s not Jesus Christ’s responsibility alone to save people.

He alone paid the price for the salvation of the world, with His blood.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Each person must choose to believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ or not.

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16