TULIP - Irresistible Grace

[brightfame52]

JLB

Completely and totally false.

No its the truth, you dont believe it

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

No. It’s not Jesus Christ’s responsibility alone to save people.

Yes it is, He is the Saviour from sin, God sent Him into the world to save sinners 1 Tim 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Lk 19:10

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Matt 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[JLB]

JLB



Yes it is, He is the Saviour from sin, God sent Him into the world to save sinners 1 Tim 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Lk 19:10

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Matt 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

Jesus Christ alone paid the price for the salvation of the world.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Furthermore it was God the Father who sent His only begotten Son into the world, that the world through Him might be saved, because God loves the world, the whole world, and without the Father sending His Son, no one would be saved.

So the Father also, has an equal part in our salvation.

Finally, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of grace, by Whom we are born again, and through Whom, we have the ability (grace) to confess Jesus as LORD, is also just as involved in our salvation as Jesus Christ and the Father.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Confessing Jesus as LORD is how we are saved; is how we obey the Gospel.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

However, each person must make the choice to believe.

Only those who believe will be saved.




JLB

 

[Whatever]

Here is my question, again, for reflection:
IF God desires all men to be saved...
WHY aren't all men saved?

Is God unable to achieve His desire?

You will probably hate this cause it is from the OT:
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

There is no question that everything God wills or desires, He can and will bring it to pass.

Paul:
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

If God desired all people without exception to be saved, He will bring it to pass.
If God desired all people without distinction to be saved, He will bring that to pass.
Which one is God bringing to pass?

Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

God is saving a multitude of people without distinction of whether they are Jews, Germans, Mexicans and so forth.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

Confessing Jesus as LORD is how we are saved; is how we obey the Gospel.

False, you did good until here, this activity[Confessing Jesus as Lord and obeying] is evidence of Salvation, what saved this person was what was done by God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost

 

[Whatever]

I found a Jesus Who is very loving and merciful

Yes, when He came in the flesh to be an innocent lamb. But He is going to come back with vengeance.

No. But I also do not believe that God CAUSES sin to occur.

I believe that God foreordained for Adam to fall. God has a holy purpose for what He does.
Rev 13:8 says that Jesus was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. I don't think Jesus was actually slain, but that it was foreordained that He would come and die before the world was made.
This is because God knew that He would need a savior.
You can say that God was simply looking into the future and preparing for what He saw. But if God foresaw all the sin that would result from Him creating the World, it seems He would have figured out a better way to create the world.

This touches on Theodicy: Theo = God and dike = "trial" or "judgement"

• A vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil.
• A vindication of the justice of God in ordaining or permitting natural and moral evil.

There have been many books dealing with this subject.

 

[Whatever]

what saved this person was what was done by God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Just what the Angel of the Lord said to Joseph.

Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

The JLB version
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will give His people a chance to save themselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

You will probably hate this cause it is from the OT:
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

There is no question that everything God wills or desires, He can and will bring it to pass.

I guess you just don't get the point Whatever.

If Paul is telling us in 1 Timothy that God DESIRES ALL MEN to be saved....
and up above you're confirming that God brings to pass what He speaks and wants....

THEN WHY aren't all men saved?

(BTW,,,the OT is fine.
Some of it is poetic though...or is hyperbole....and some use this type of scripture for support.
Which it really isn't, of course.)

Paul:
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

All Christians believe this but not in the same way that the reformed do.
Predestination is indeed in the NT.
But WHAT is being predestined?
Your verse, Eph 1:11 is stating that God's PURPOSE is being predestined......NOT an individual(s).

And, definitely yes, God WILL make sure that His will is achieved....
but THROUGH man's Free Will....not as events predestined.
(Jesus' sacrifice was predestined...we all know this).

Predestination is always for.
PURPOSE
METHOD

HOW we are saved and FOR WHAT.

If God desired all people without exception to be saved, He will bring it to pass.

1 Timothy speaks to this one. WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
So why aren't all men being saved?

If God desired all people without distinction to be saved, He will bring that to pass.
Which one is God bringing to pass?

Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

God is saving a multitude of people without distinction of whether they are Jews, Germans, Mexicans and so forth.

Agreed of course.

ANYONE could be saved...
as long as they want to be.

Grace is resistible.

And I guess I'll let the other matter go since you either really don't grasp what I'm saying...
or
You prefer not to.

Since I believe you to be an intelligent fellow...I'll have to go with option 2.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, when He came in the flesh to be an innocent lamb. But He is going to come back with vengeance.

I believe He came with a vengeance the first time too...
He ended up on a cross because of it.

But I know what you mean and I agree.

I believe that God foreordained for Adam to fall. God has a holy purpose for what He does.

I have to disagree.
Why would God give to Adam a command He knew Adam could not keep?
WHY did God want Adam to fail?

It seems to me that God was rather upset that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit.
Genesis 3:9-13 NASB
9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

God then put curses on satan, the woman and the man, and banished them from the Garden.
It's a strange God that would punish persons for doing what HE wanted them to do.

Rev 13:8 says that Jesus was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. I don't think Jesus was actually slain, but that it was foreordained that He would come and die before the world was made.

Agreed. Not only was Jesus' death foreordained....
but, yes, His sacrifice crossed the barrier of time.
Even in the OT the sacrifice of Jesus saved all those that had faith.

I'd even say that Mary was also foreordained to be the mother of Jesus.
I do believe that she was prepared for this role.

What the non-reformed believe is that God does not choose who will be saved and who will be damned.
This doctrine came about due to 2 elements believed by Augustine (5th century) and by Calvin and all the reformed:
1. Total Depravity ---- teaching that man is unable to seek God or to accept Him.
2. Free Will ---- or, I should say, the absence of free will.

These 2 doctrine caused all of the teachings in reformed theology to come about.
Neither one is found in the NT Whatever.

Man is born separated from God by his inherited sin nature (from Adam)...but he is able to seek God.
Many many verses on this: Here are a few....

NASB
Acts17:27
27That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet He is actually not far from each one of us,

Matthew 6:33
33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that He rewards those who seek him.​

and here's one from the OT (there are many more there too).

Jeremiah 29:13
13You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.​

There are also many verses regarding the fact that man has free will.
We'll let that go for now.

This is because God knew that He would need a savior.
You can say that God was simply looking into the future and preparing for what He saw. But if God foresaw all the sin that would result from Him creating the World, it seems He would have figured out a better way to create the world.

Aha. And here we have the biggest problem in Christianity.
Theodicy.
The problem of evil.
But the solution is not to believe that God created evil....this would nullify all the statements about God being love.
A loving God will not predestine sinful acts by men.

I believe the solution here is that God wanted a people that were free to either choose Him or reject Him.
He wanted His creation to love Him freely.
This necessitated that He create His highest creatures (us) with free will.
If we (mere humans) want our spouse or parent to love us freely and not because they are forced somehow to love us....then how much more will God desire this, being the infinite being that He is.

So God made Adam free to choose.
Adam chose satan and the sin was too great --- Adam should have chosen His creator.
But through free will he preferred to listen to and obey the evil one.

And everything that was perfect became imperfect...relationships, nature.
And this is the world system we've created for ourselves...
But we still can answer to God's call with a yes and be on HIS side instead of on the side
of satan.

This touches on Theodicy: Theo = God and dike = "trial" or "judgement"

• A vindication of God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil.
• A vindication of the justice of God in ordaining or permitting natural and moral evil.

There have been many books dealing with this subject.

Good. OK.
Let me say that there is a big difference between
ORDAINING
and
PERMITTING

God permits, which goes to my reply in the paragraph just above.
He created everything and now permits all events to go as they will go.

If God ordains...it means that God WANTS what happens to happen.
It means that God wants murder to happen...and all evil acts.

I find this totally unacceptable.
This would change the nature of God and His nature cannot be changed.

 

[hawkman]

Its for the saved to establish them in the truth. The Gospel is foolishness and death to the unsaved lost

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The word perish here is the greek word ἀπόλλυμι:
Lost, perish

The teaching about the cross seems foolish to those who are lost. But to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

To the lost the Gospel in the purpose of God is a savor of death unto death, versus for the saved, its life unto life 2 Cor 2:15-16

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

So its a lie to say the Gospel is to the unsaved to get them saved

brightfame52 , you are standing before a congregation of nothing but unsaved people , what do you tell them ?
Is there another gospel that you have for them ?

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52 , you are standing before a congregation of nothing but unsaved people , what do you tell them ?
Is there another gospel that you have for them ?

The Gospel is to be preached to the saved and the lost, you tell them the Gospel

 

[Whatever]

Man is born separated from God by his inherited sin nature (from Adam)...but he is able to seek God.
Many many verses on this: Here are a few....

Here are a few others:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that He rewards those who seek him.

According to Paul the natural man cannot and will not do that. So what is the solution?

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

That is what we call irresistible grace.

Why would God give to Adam a command He knew Adam could not keep?
WHY did God want Adam to fail?

Because God's ultimate goal was to glorify Himself. All of His attributes. And to ultimately create a new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells. This earth and this life is a kind of school of hard knocks where God uses all this tribulation to build our characters.

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Most people think God created everything and us so that we could live happily ever after. But it appears that that "happily ever after" doesn't come until the next life and then only for some.

I'm going to assume that you have never read anything from the other side and all your ideas have come from your parents, pastors and Sunday School teachers and others you agree with.
I'm probably wasting my time, but I am going to recommend two books that just might let you see it from a bigger picture.

Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World
Christensen, Scott - March 2024

What about Free Will?: Reconciling Our Choices with God's Sovereignty
Christensen, Scott - 2016

 

[Whatever]

ANYONE could be saved...
as long as they want to be.

And you don't think there might be other forces keeping people from wanting to?

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Paul is not speaking about some special class of really bad people. It is just us as we are born in the flesh. Something has to happen to change us.

For faith in Christ, which is not merely believing that he is the Christ, and all that is said of him, or all that he himself says, but is a seeing of the Son, a going to him, receiving, embracing, leaning, relying, and living upon him, as God's salvation, is a pure gift of grace; it is not in nature, nor in every man, and in whom it is, it is not of themselves, it is the gift of God; the first implantation of it, all its acts and exercise, its increase, and the performance of it at last with power, are all owing to the grace of God - John Gill

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

And you don't think there might be other forces keeping people from wanting to?

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Paul is not speaking about some special class of really bad people. It is just us as we are born in the flesh. Something has to happen to change us.

23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Ti 2:23–26)​

When a servant of the Lord tries to correct those who are in opposition, he must not quarrel, must be gentle, must be able to teach, must be patient, and must be humble. He prays that God will grant repentance to those in opposition so that they may know the truth, may come to their senses, and may escape the devil's entanglements which have enslaved them to do his will.

I think this gives us great insight into the appropriate attitude we need to have in discussions on this forum. It not only heps us understand the approach we need to take, but it also helps us understand what is at stake for those we are trying to help.

There are indications in this passage that "those who are in opposition" are fellow Christians, not lost people with fleshly minds that prevent them knowing the truth. Why can't we see that a Christian believing false doctrines is a snare that makes him a captive to do the devil's will?

 

[GodsGrace]

Here are a few others:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think you're posting scripture that shows that we cannot seek God.
W....if this is the case, then, as usual with calvinism, you are causing conflict within scripture.

Also, you don't attempt to explain MY verses but just playing verse volley by sending me back some.

So let's look at yours and how THEY DO NOT cause conflict in scripture:
You posted
1 Cor 2:14 NASB
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Here is the solution to the conflict W....
ALL Christians agree with 1 Cor 2:14
Look at the context....we have received the spirit who is from God. Verse 12
We can now know the things taught by the Spirit. Verse 13
A natural man cannot know the teachings of the Spirit because he is still obeying the spirit of the world.
See verse 12

No conflict W.
There is also no mention of HOW we receive the Spirit of God.
No mention of predestination.
No mention of God choosing who will be saved.

Just the plain fact that those that are born again will UNDERSTAND the scriptures given to us by God....
to the unsaved it sounds like foolishness.

You read into this what is not there.

According to Paul the natural man cannot and will not do that. So what is the solution?

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

The OT....here we go:
Is this the same Ezekiel who stated in 34:5 that the sheep were scattered for lack of a Shepherd?
So after all the lamenting...did God just decide to abandon His sheep - something not done in the New Testament...cry over it because apparently He made a mistake...by letting others lead them astray.

Then in 34:11 God decides to go and seek out His sheep...which HE allowed to be scattered (since God decrees everything)...see W....this makes no sense whatsoever.

Perhaps it is a foreshadowing of what Jesus will do?

Now look at Eze 36:24-25 God is going to gather up the Jews from all the lands and He's going to sprinkle them with clean water and make them clean.

So does this mean that God is going to give the Jews a shower?

If you take Eze 36:26 literally,,,,then you'll have to take verse 25 literally...

OR
You could take both as poetic language...which is what it is.

THIS is how a person can become saved:
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
And THIS is how we receive the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That is what we call irresistible grace.

No.
Grace IS resistible:

Acts 7:51
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Because God's ultimate goal was to glorify Himself. All of His attributes. And to ultimately create a new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells. This earth and this life is a kind of school of hard knocks where God uses all this tribulation to build our characters.

I agree that this earth is a school of hard knocks.

But I have to disagree that God created mankind to glorify Himself.
I doubt God is narcisistic.
I believe God made us because He desired to LOVE.
To love us and to be loved.

To think that God created us for some distant dream in the future that He had and was willing to cause
all this suffering for it...is to believe in a God devoid of love or justice.

He could have just immediately made the new earth the way He dreamed.

Is God so weak that He cannot achieve His goal?

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Most people think God created everything and us so that we could live happily ever after. But it appears that that "happily ever after" doesn't come until the next life and then only for some.

I don't know anyone that believes they are living happily ever after.
I do wonder what you base your thinking on....
But no matter.

I'm going to assume that you have never read anything from the other side and all your ideas have come from your parents, pastors and Sunday School teachers and others you agree with.
I'm probably wasting my time, but I am going to recommend two books that just might let you see it from a bigger picture.

Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World
Christensen, Scott - March 2024

What about Free Will?: Reconciling Our Choices with God's Sovereignty
Christensen, Scott - 2016

Why ASSUME anything about me Whatever?
Have I assumed anything about YOU?
Do you know what happens when we ASSUME things about persons?

Let's stick to scripture please.

 

[GodsGrace]

And you don't think there might be other forces keeping people from wanting to?

There are many forces keeping persons from God...
But one of them is not God because He desires for all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
John 12:31-32
31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Agreed.
The UNSAVED are captive to do satan's will.

But it's up to each of us to reject him.
It's up to each of us to PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to serve:
Romans 6:16 NASB
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Agreed.

But Paul says to WALK in the spirit.
Walk is an active verb...an action we must take:
Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Paul is not speaking about some special class of really bad people. It is just us as we are born in the flesh. Something has to happen to change us.

Agreed.

For faith in Christ, which is not merely believing that he is the Christ, and all that is said of him, or all that he himself says, but is a seeing of the Son, a going to him, receiving, embracing, leaning, relying, and living upon him, as God's salvation, is a pure gift of grace; it is not in nature, nor in every man, and in whom it is, it is not of themselves, it is the gift of God; the first implantation of it, all its acts and exercise, its increase, and the performance of it at last with power, are all owing to the grace of God - John Gill

Agreed.

But this does not take away our free will to follow Jesus.
Jesus taught that we must WISH/WANT to follow Him:
Matthew 16:24 NASB

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

 

[Whatever]

ALL Christians agree with 1 Cor 2:14
Look at the context....we have received the spirit who is from God. Verse 12

Yes, but who is the "we."
1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours
1 Corinthians 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

He is writing to people who are already Christians. Of course they have received the Spirit from God.

You seem to see spiritual truth as being broadcast out there like a wireless signal for anybody to just pick up willy-nilly. Square your free will with Jesus:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64

The Spirit gives life the flesh is no help at all or profits nothing. The flesh- man and his free will is no help at all.
Notice verses 64 and 65. That parenthesis was put in there by John. Eliminate it and you have just what Jesus said:
But there are some of you who do not believe.” And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus is saying that those of them that didn't believe, didn't believe because it wasn't granted to them to believe by the Father.

You say that predestination isn't about people but about a process and then tell me that God desires all men to be saved. Have you ever really medicated on the logic of this statement?

God desires all men to be saved and so predestined a plan that results in few being saved.

Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

In an earlier post you said I was assuming things about you and said
Let's stick to scripture please.

But that does no good. If your worldview makes you interpret Scripture contrary to mine, then what good does it do?

I just checked and this thread has had 175 replies. That is probably just a dozen or so of us. But it has had 922 views. That means a lot of people are looking at it and are curious. I'm thinking more of maybe giving some of them something to think about they might not hear from their friends or Church.

 

[Whatever]

Why can't we see that a Christian believing false doctrines is a snare that makes him a captive to do the devil's will?

I do see that. That's why I am trying to correct that false doctrine. I don't talk like this to people I know.
Especially if I am like in a Sunday School class. I've learned to just keep quiet.

 

[hawkman]

You seem to see spiritual truth as being broadcast out there like a wireless signal for anybody to just pick up willy-nilly.

The spiritual truth is being broadcast for anybody to pick up willy-nilly , they just need the necessary equipment set on the proper channel.
I have seen broadcasts of spiritual truth on Television using a satellite dish or an terrestrial antenna . I have listened to broadcasts of spiritual truth on radio on wireless signal .

 

[brightfame52]

The spiritual truth is being broadcast for anybody to pick up willy-nilly , they just need the necessary equipment set on the proper channel.
I have seen broadcasts of spiritual truth on Television using a satellite dish or an terrestrial antenna . I have listened to broadcasts of spiritual truth on radio on wireless signal .

There needs to be a spritual capacity to receive Spiritual Truth, that capacity comes by Spiritual Birth. God give the Spirit for that purpose to His elect 1 Cor 2:12-15

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 ;But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.