Remember guys this is Bible Study ... it is not a forum of who can one up who or who can be the most snarky... 
Bible Study Two Covenants: The Old and New
- Thread starter ezrider
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
Hosea 2:16-17
And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi;
and shalt call me no more Baali.
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth,
and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
What was the stumblingblock cast before the children of Israel. What is the stumblingblock that keeps you from understanding that you are already betrothed in Christ?
I must give credit to Sparrowhawke for for bringing this to the light; But what is in the name Baali? Is it not servant? Or Slave? Do you still serve a Master? Are you a Bond-Servant of your Master? Is this how someone who is betrothed speaks of their beloved?
.
And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi;
and shalt call me no more Baali.
For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth,
and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
What was the stumblingblock cast before the children of Israel. What is the stumblingblock that keeps you from understanding that you are already betrothed in Christ?
I must give credit to Sparrowhawke for for bringing this to the light; But what is in the name Baali? Is it not servant? Or Slave? Do you still serve a Master? Are you a Bond-Servant of your Master? Is this how someone who is betrothed speaks of their beloved?
.
J
jocor
Guest
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Torah is the written Word that became the living Word (Yeshua). Yeshua is the embodiment of Torah and everything contained therein. We are to only partake of Yeshua (the living Torah) for he alone is our Tree of Life. If you are eating from things other than the living Torah, then you are eating from things outside the garden. Even if you are eating from within the garden, there are things therein that are still forbidden to eat (things that occasion the flesh; another man's wife, a false god, working in the garden on the Sabbath Day, stealing another man's fruit, etc.).
J
jocor
Guest
I already addressed the rest by pointing out that those words of Yeshua were spoken from Galilee, not Zion. They began with non-commandments (the ten blessings). Then he magnified the existing commandments by giving us a more indepth understanding of them. Then he gave us his teachings on how to live by the principles found in Torah (how to pray, judge, give alms, fast, etc).
smaller
Member
Believers often seek to find justifications for the entirety of themselves. The O.T. was always meant to reveal the presence of sin, but the natural man, the carnal man, can not perceive his internal condition apart from the revealing of Christ in the N.T. When they do, and some do, they then perceive themselves in the LIGHT of the N.T. to be dead, because of the presence of SIN in the body.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The O.T. was, in every way, against SIN which indwells the flesh. There is, in short, no way to justify indwelling sin nor will it be "obedient" to the Law. It can not be.
Jesus, The Living Word, reveals to us, even in the O.T. just exactly what the plan of Salvation was, in typology or shadow forms, here for example, as He calls OUT Abram from the nations and countries, to be a wandering Hebrew:
Genesis 12:1
Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
This identical principle is deployed again, here:
Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
And again, here, noted in even more intimacy, to an entire body of people:
Deuteronomy 4:34
Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation,
Paul allegorizes, basically, the entirety of these matters in Galatians 4, and identifies that it is the natural man in a dead body of sin that is US, and that God takes for himself, from that dead natural man with indwelling sin in a dead body, a NEW NATION and A NEW BODY, that is also US:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
The old man, the dead body in which sin dwells, can NOT be justified any more than Ishmael or Hagar, who were in BONDAGE to Abraham.
Abraham, himself had TWO SONS. One of the flesh, and one of the promise, which is a direct example of Abram to Abraham. The old man and the New Man. And these two matters are exemplified in the TWO COVENANTS.
The old man, the blinded man who is a captive of indwelling sin can not see or perceive his condition. Nor is there anyway to "justify" the old man, dwelling in the body of sin.
The new man, born of the Spirit, recognizes his condition, does NOT try to justify sin indwelling the flesh, and realizes he dwells in a body of death, in which is indwelling sin. There is no way to condemn THE SECOND MAN under the N.T. And there is every way to condemn the old man, under the O.T.
Both testaments will continue to serve their purposes.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The O.T. was, in every way, against SIN which indwells the flesh. There is, in short, no way to justify indwelling sin nor will it be "obedient" to the Law. It can not be.
Jesus, The Living Word, reveals to us, even in the O.T. just exactly what the plan of Salvation was, in typology or shadow forms, here for example, as He calls OUT Abram from the nations and countries, to be a wandering Hebrew:
Genesis 12:1
Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
This identical principle is deployed again, here:
Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
And again, here, noted in even more intimacy, to an entire body of people:
Deuteronomy 4:34
Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation,
Paul allegorizes, basically, the entirety of these matters in Galatians 4, and identifies that it is the natural man in a dead body of sin that is US, and that God takes for himself, from that dead natural man with indwelling sin in a dead body, a NEW NATION and A NEW BODY, that is also US:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
The old man, the dead body in which sin dwells, can NOT be justified any more than Ishmael or Hagar, who were in BONDAGE to Abraham.
Abraham, himself had TWO SONS. One of the flesh, and one of the promise, which is a direct example of Abram to Abraham. The old man and the New Man. And these two matters are exemplified in the TWO COVENANTS.
The old man, the blinded man who is a captive of indwelling sin can not see or perceive his condition. Nor is there anyway to "justify" the old man, dwelling in the body of sin.
The new man, born of the Spirit, recognizes his condition, does NOT try to justify sin indwelling the flesh, and realizes he dwells in a body of death, in which is indwelling sin. There is no way to condemn THE SECOND MAN under the N.T. And there is every way to condemn the old man, under the O.T.
Both testaments will continue to serve their purposes.
I must apologies. I made an error in my statement and transposed the subject of the meaning of Baali.
Baali does not mean "servant". Baali is the name that the servants use or call the overseer.
Baali means MASTER.
In that day you shall call me your HUSBAND (Ishi) and shall NO MORE call me MASTER (Baali).
Do you still call Christ your Master? Do you say Lord, Lord?
.
Th
Yes, there is a difference. King David loved the Torah but slipped up lied, committed murder and adultery. However he repented and was forgiven, lived to a ripe old age and was called a righteous man (grace). Even those Gentiles who had harkened to Jonah's warning of having their lives shortened repented of their wicked ways and by doing so they too lived (grace). Nobody required an animal to be butchered or sacrificed, no blood had to be spilled. Just a sincere repentence and YHVH forgave them (without having to leave his throne) and they too lived (grace). On the otherhand Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed and those people did not stand a chance (they chose to what is pleasing in their eyes)
One thing many here don't appear to understand is the law is given by our Creator for all of us to live by. The idea behind 'that ye may live' is to live a long life here on this earth. Those that think Torah was given as a gateway to eternal life are gravely mistaken. Torah is given to teach us what is righteous in Gods eyes, to bring order to our lives and that we may live a long life here and now on this earth.
I will admitt not much is written about eternal life in Torah. But the thought on that is thats because what we do today is whats important. Daniel wrote everyone is awakened some to reward others to shame.
Deu 4:1 says Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live,
I do not believe the law and Grace are the same yet i disagree they are opposites .. Different yesI am so very thankful for the Grace we have been shown...
Yes, there is a difference. King David loved the Torah but slipped up lied, committed murder and adultery. However he repented and was forgiven, lived to a ripe old age and was called a righteous man (grace). Even those Gentiles who had harkened to Jonah's warning of having their lives shortened repented of their wicked ways and by doing so they too lived (grace). Nobody required an animal to be butchered or sacrificed, no blood had to be spilled. Just a sincere repentence and YHVH forgave them (without having to leave his throne) and they too lived (grace). On the otherhand Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed and those people did not stand a chance (they chose to what is pleasing in their eyes)
One thing many here don't appear to understand is the law is given by our Creator for all of us to live by. The idea behind 'that ye may live' is to live a long life here on this earth. Those that think Torah was given as a gateway to eternal life are gravely mistaken. Torah is given to teach us what is righteous in Gods eyes, to bring order to our lives and that we may live a long life here and now on this earth.
I will admitt not much is written about eternal life in Torah. But the thought on that is thats because what we do today is whats important. Daniel wrote everyone is awakened some to reward others to shame.
Last edited:
Are you trying to quote Gal 5:13 as your answer to where are commanded to eat of no other fruit. If it is then I can no longer take you seriously. A scripture that espouses the LIBERTY that we have in Christ Jesus under His covenant of peace you would quote to tell me that of all the trees in the field that have been given to me I can not touch? Again where does that command come from. The Tree of Knowledge? For that is not the command the we have heard. Of all the trees in the garden you may eat. Only the tree of Knowledge you shall not eat!
LIBERTY is expressed by FREEDOM, and yet you make it into something that binds. Why is that? Is not the freedom we have in Christ sufficient enough for you?
1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Romans 14:22-23
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
We have been called to walk in the Law of Liberty in Christ, to walk according to the covenant of Grace, to walk by FAITH. So why is it then that you can not accept the liberty that we have in Christ Jesus? Why when the scripture informs me that all things are lawful for me, you then seek to add things you claim are forbidden to me? Who was told you there are still things forbidden to eat?
Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 Corinthians 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience.
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Peter 2:18-19
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
.
Mt. Zion is located in the last of the three verses of Psalm 133 (That's where the Dew of Mt. Hermon falls on it too!)
For it is THERE that your Fiancée commands the blessing.
The first couple verses are even more interesting. Now that's a place that He can see (and angels too) from far.
You are way too funny Sparrowhawke, you crack me up!
Thanks for that answer, it was perfect.
And so you have your answer jocor, it is written in the Law and Prophets, that from Galilee it should be!
.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Thanks reba, but there was a real physical place that had prophetic significance. This is the Zion I am referring to. The Law that came forth from Zion. Not the law of Moses, but the Law of God.
Isaiah 2:2-4
And it shall come to pass in the last days,
that the mountain of the Lord 's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and shall be exalted above the hills;
and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among the nations,
and shall rebuke many people:
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more
Micah 4:1-2
But in the last days it shall come to pass,
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and it shall be exalted above the hills;
and people shall flow unto it.
And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Psalm 133
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
for brethren to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious ointment upon the head,
that ran down upon the beard,
even Aaron's beard:that went down to the skirts of his garments;
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion:
for there the Lord commanded the blessing,
even life for evermore.
Deuteronomy 4:48
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon.
Matthew 5:1
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain:and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying........
What mountain did Jesus go up into when he open his mouth the teach. What mountain did the multitudes go up into?
Was is not Mt Zion. Literally!
J
jocor
Guest
There are at least two Mt. Zions; one near Jerusalem on earth and the one in heaven (heavenly Jerusalem). I believe the law will go forth from the heavenly Jerusalem after it descends to earth and Yeshua rules from it. Yeshua was not near either one when he gave his Sermon on the Mount.
J
jocor
Guest
There are at least two Mt. Zions; one near Jerusalem on earth and the one in heaven (heavenly Jerusalem). I believe the law will go forth from the heavenly Jerusalem after it descends to earth and Yeshua rules from it. Yeshua was not near either one when he gave his Sermon on the Mount.
No, it was not literally Mt. Zion.
Mat 4:23 And Yeshua went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
Mat 4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
The mountain was in Galilee.Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
Mat 4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
J
jocor
Guest
I did not quote Gal 5:13 as my answer to where we are commanded to eat of no other fruit. I quoted it specifically in reply to your statement;
"But I do not live with that fear, I live by the resurrection of Christ in the Grace of the covenant of Promise, where the Lord has set me in His Liberty, free to eat of any tree in the midst of the garden, even the Tree of Life."
If I am understanding you correctly, you think this liberty of yours allows you to break Yahweh's commandments found in the Law of Moses. Edited a bit to close to ) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general.
We have liberty and freedom in Messiah, but NOT to sin. Sin is defined in 1 John 3:4 as "the transgression of the law." According to Yeshua, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled. That includes heaven and earth passing.
Just before Paul wrote, "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any" (1Co 6:12), he wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1Co 6:9-10).
Everything mentioned in 1Co 6:9-10 is unlawful to do. That is why people who do those things will not inherit the KIngdom. If they were lawful, we could do those things. Paul was referring to things that are "indifferent" according to several commentators like Gill, Jameison, Fausset, Brown, etc. Surely you do not think Paul is teaching us it is lawful to murder or do you?
Last edited by a moderator:
reba I think you've got that one exactly right. Heb 12:18 is Sinai, the trembling one. Heb 12:22 is Zion!
Micah specifically says that the law shall go forth from Zion. Mt. Zion is a very special place.
And here's the exciting part. We (you and me) get to hear that proclamation *in our spirits* and if that is what you are saying, pardon my poor hearing and misunderstaning, please!
And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. Micah 4:1 (some uncopyrighted version)
It's prophetic -- that's the place where they will hammer their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks... (but don't think for a minute that people from Nebraska will have to pilgrimage to Zion to have peace established in their hearts --- sheesh! And I know you don't think that, just saying...)
I've confessed my shame elsewhere - that I used to be all in a rage (as a teen) and that The Lord has effected great change in me (and others too) about that. My weapons are no longer being built to target flesh and blood --> that happened on Zion (for me and in me).
Last edited:
Zion is people! But not like soylent green. You have to think abstractly about the mass of people God has lifted up.
So how can you and I have that law applied now? Do we really have to wait for it to physically descend?
Answer: No. There is no pie-in-the-sky that is out of our reach. God makes all good things and they descend down from Him. By faith we have access to all that belongs to Jesus. He is not stingy like that.
Further, it's because God espouses and pleads with jealousy that we have to take great care when we deal with each other. The way He says it to me is to remind me to start by asking myself to remember the long-suffering that He uses while He deals with me... and I'm left there flabbergasted.
Flabbergasted Me: What? You mean the Eph 4:20,24 kind? The every second and every single day kind of long-suffering that You alone can have?
Our Father: "Yes, that is what I mean."
Me: Oh, so It's similar to the command, Be thou Holy for I am Holy... Okay, I get it but I'm gonna need help with that one.
Our Father: "That's a given..."
So that's the lesson that I have to continue in (and ask for prayers about) because I know that I offend in way too many ways.
EZ's point is that those who sat on the Mount of Olives also heard the new laws being written into their hearts (from Zion) -- they didn't really replace the old laws, like the old was uprooted -but the new are the Spirit-Fruit bearing laws. Pardon my poor speechifying... but I hope that was less muddy than some of my other attempts, maybe?
Last edited: