Bible Study Two Covenants: The Old and New

[smaller]

This still doesn't answer my question. I will rephrase it. Please explain what you meant by, "I would submit that both Covenants currently remain firmly in place ..." Do they both remain in place in a believer's life?

The law is against sin in anyone and everyone. There is no way to make indwelling sin legally obedient or under Grace for that matter.

I prefer to not read Yeshua into the text of John 1:1-4, but view the logos as an it", not a "he".

I'm sure not, however Jesus Is The Word of God, just as John noted therein.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh,

If we understand this passage in that sense, it conflicts with Hebrews 1:1-2:

Heb 1:1 God (YHWH the Father), who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
​

YHWH did not speak to the fathers through His Son,but through the prophets.

We just covered this. The Spirit of Christ spoke through the prophets per 1 Peter 1:10-11 And, it is a basic foul anyway, to try to divide, Jesus from God as they are One and the same.

IMHO, the correct way to understand the phrase "the Spirit of Christ which was in them" is by understanding how the Spirit of YHWH (God) was manifested in the OT. When the Spirit is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17); with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29); relating to glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14); concerning truth it is called “the spirit of truth”(John 14:17; 16:13); These are not different spirits. All the names refer to the one gift of holy spirit that God gives. When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was upon prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” it is easy to see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

IF you do not see The Word of God as Jesus, in the manner described by John, I can see how you ran away from the obvious. The Law changed and was made flesh, as did the Priesthood, to Jesus. That does NOT mean the Word is one bit different.

I disagree. Every law has a literal and spiritual application. You cannot keep the spirit of the Law and yet, not keep the letter. If one commits the act of adultery, he has broken the letter and the spirit of the Law. Breaking the letter of the Law is the final culmination of breaking the spirit of the Law. We can break the spirit of the law and yet, not break the letter, but the opposite does not hold true.

I don't view matters of law as just by the man, but also by the tempter who resists same within us via temptations. I would observe it is impossible to make the tempter legal or obedient to the law, and therefore, since that operation and operator does work "IN" people's minds, they can not be legal as to their entirety. They will merely be hypocrites, acting good on the outside and more than likely lying to themselves and others about the facts of their own internal evil thoughts, claiming they don't have any or they aren't defiling sin, which same ARE and ARE brought into believers by the tempter. I expect to hear honesty from very few in this regards.

The following literal acts are still forbidden: fornication (1Co 5:1-11); stealing (Eph 4:28); murder (1Pe 4:15); adultery, idolatry and witchcraft (Gal 5:19-20); and on and on. We, as believers, are forbidden to break the letter of the law.

Paul did no such thing. He allegorized the two covenants.

He also allegorized the law in Galatians 4 and also in 1 Cor. 9:8-10 for a couple of easy examples. He also allegorized the events of the Red Sea and the cloud in 1 Corinthians 10 AND also showed this:

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Psalm 78:1-2 is referring to two different things; the law and parables. It is not saying the Law is parabolic.

So some may think. We covered this prior as well:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

And the Seed is Jesus:

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If Jesus lives in us, then so does every Word of God, written within our own hearts.

 

[jocor]

The law is against sin in anyone and everyone. There is no way to make indwelling sin legally obedient or under Grace for that matter.



I'm sure not, however Jesus Is The Word of God, just as John noted therein.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh,



We just covered this. The Spirit of Christ spoke through the prophets per 1 Peter 1:10-11 And, it is a basic foul anyway, to try to divide, Jesus from God as they are One and the same.


IF you do not see The Word of God as Jesus, in the manner described by John, I can see how you ran away from the obvious. The Law changed and was made flesh, as did the Priesthood, to Jesus. That does NOT mean the Word is one bit different.



I don't view matters of law as just by the man, but also by the tempter who resists same within us via temptations. I would observe it is impossible to make the tempter legal or obedient to the law, and therefore, since that operation and operator does work "IN" people's minds, they can not be legal as to their entirety. They will merely be hypocrites, acting good on the outside and more than likely lying to themselves and others about the facts of their own internal evil thoughts, claiming they don't have any or they aren't defiling sin, which same ARE and ARE brought into believers by the tempter. I expect to hear honesty from very few in this regards.



He also allegorized the law in Galatians 4 and also in 1 Cor. 9:8-10 for a couple of easy examples. He also allegorized the events of the Red Sea and the cloud in 1 Corinthians 10 AND also showed this:

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


So some may think. We covered this prior as well:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

And the Seed is Jesus:

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If Jesus lives in us, then so does every Word of God, written within our own hearts.

We are doctrinally too far apart to continue any kind of fruitful discussion. Shalom.

 

[electricaluser]

We are doctrinally too far apart to continue any kind of fruitful discussion. Shalom.

I know that feeling, I myself have gotten so far apart from everyone doctrinally the way I see the bible looks upside down to everyone. But I've gone so far one way it's now to far to go back, it's heaven or bust.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

What does it mean to inherit the earth? Have we already inherited the earth? Or are we waiting for some future kingdom in which we hope to inherit the earth? Both positions I believe could be argued for from the scripture, but the difference in the answer would more than likely depend upon which covenant with God your beliefs align with: The old covenant or the new covenant.

The old covenant was one of obedience to the Law, the new covenant is of Grace and obedience to Faith. But the differences between the two are much more than just a simplified phrase.

The old covenant was not just a covenant with a people, it was a covenant with a nation; the earthly kingdom of Israel. In the old testament the prophets foretold of the judgement of the nation. The Kingdom of Israel was judged and divide into two kingdoms; The nation Israel was judged when they were conquered by the Assyrians, and the peoples of that nation were scattered abroad. The remaining kingdom of Judah and Jerusalem were judged when they were carried off to Babylon and Jerusalem was destroyed. The nation of Israel (Judah) and Jerusalem were judged again according the old covenant and according to the prophecy of Jesus when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the peoples were scattered abroad.

The new covenant is still a covenant with a people, and it is a covenant with a kingdom; but in this case it is not an earthly kingdom, it is a spiritual kingdom, it is the Kingdom of Heaven, and Jesus is our Lord, Priest and King.

Under the old covenant the Law required that those guilty of certain sins, for instance an adulterer, was to be stoned to death so that the nation might remain clean in the face of judgement according to the Law under the old covenant. Yet when faced with the adulterer, Jesus demonstrated the mercy demanded of the new covenant when he challenged them by saying he who is without sin cast the first stone; making an open show of those principalities and powers.

Our relationship with God is a covenant relationship. And the way we perceive and interpret the scriptures, both the law and the prophets, depends upon how we perceive our covenant relationship with God. Most people would claim that they are under the new covenant, yet their character still reflects an old covenant relationship. For example, Christians will hold up the Bible and the Law of Moses as their justification and in their defense for fighting against homosexual marriage because they believe they would be condoning it otherwise, and if they were to permit it, then God would bring judgement upon the nation: this is an old covenant mindset.

I believe if our relationship with God through Christ is viewed through an old covenant lens, then that person tends to see Matt 24 as a yet future judgement; But if our relationship is viewed through a new covenant lens, then that person tends to see Matt 24 as already being fulfilled. The tares of the field are of the old covenant, the wheat are of the new. The characteristics of these Covenant relationships we have through Christ I believe effects our application of Law and colors our views on Prophecy, and may help explain why two people can see the same scripture so differently.

I think everyone recognizes that there are two Covenants, the Old and the New. What I hope to achieve in this study with the assistance of all who wish to participate, is to use some scriptural references that can help to define the characteristics of both the old and the new covenants. What are their similarities, and what are their differences?

I am posting this thread in the Bible Study forum because it is not a debate forum. My intent in this thread is to simply examine the characteristics of the two covenants. If this topic generates some interest, then I hope to start a sister thread eventually in the appropriate forum where we can debate how these characteristics might reflect on our judgement and interpretation of prophecy.

Powerful understanding. Perfect testimony Wonderful read. And I am in the New Covenant!


Mat_26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out--to remission of sins;
Mar_14:24 and he said to them, `This is my blood of the new covenant, which for many is being poured out;
Luk_22:20 In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.

1Co_11:25 In like manner also the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood; this do ye, as often as ye may drink it --to the remembrance of me;'
2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.
Heb_8:8 For finding fault, He saith to them, `Lo, days come, saith the Lord, and I will complete with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a new covenant,
Heb_9:15 And because of this, of a new covenant he is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance,
Heb_12:24 and to a mediator of a new covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!

...Which is of course, the Abrahamic Covenant ratified through the One Seed, Abraham's Son Jesus;

(Gal 3:16) and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, `And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, `And to thy seed,' which is Christ;

Which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

(Luk 1:55) As He spake unto our fathers, To Abraham and to his seed--to the age.'

 

[Jesus Martyr]

There was certainly two Covenants.

The law, which was the covenant at Sinai, was added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

However, Paul tells us about the arrangement of the covenant at Sinai, in association with The Abrahamic Covenant.

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.


The law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, till the Seed should come...


This flows with your study of these two covenants.

I personally see that the law that was added, was added specifically untill the Seed came.

That is why I say there were two covenants.

The one, contained within the other.

The law was a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, for it was the Abrahamic Covenant that promised the land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


JLB

haha both JLB and ezrider are right on and yet they both seem to think there is a difference in what they are saying and I don't see it!
The only thing I have a question about... and maybe because I haven't read through to the end, but this term "replacement" has come up a few times here "replacement theology"? What is that? Never mind I don't want to know lol
Both you have wonderful understanding. It seems you both know that we are Israel saved in the New Covenant, which is based on the Abrahamic Covenant. You both appear to know that the Law of Moses was the Old Covenant. And you both seem to know that the New Covenant Promised to the divided House of Israel and the House of Judah, now One House of Israel, IS the Assembly of the Faithful who are born of Christ. The New Covenant in Christ's Blood...
Right?
Or am I missing something here...
Anyway, I give you both the benefit of the doubt!
In Love in Christ
JM

 

[Jesus Martyr]

JLB,

I think we agree here more than we disagree,

YES!!!

 

[Jesus Martyr]

What is a covenant? A covenant is a binding legal contract, recognized under the law. So too is marriage. A Marriage license is a binding legal contract between to individuals. When we look at the Old and New Covenants, we are seeing the marriage contracts that the Lord has established with man. The Old Covenant was the marriage contract between the Lord and the people of the nation of Israel. The New Covenant is the marriage contract between the Lord and the people of Faith in Christ.

Are you waiting for your marriage to the lamb of God? Are you already married to the lamb? Or in your pride do you say I am a queen and am no widow?

Gal 4:21-27 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

In this passage we find that the desolate are linked to Jerusalem which is now, and they are in bondage with her children, and they still answer to the old covenant, forever waiting for the promises to come. Both Jesus and the prophet Daniel spoke of the desolation of Jerusalem. But understand this in the frame set of marriage, because we are told in this passage as well, that the children of promise under the new covenant answer to New Jerusalem above which is free, and which already has a husband.

Rom 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

That you should be married to Christ, so that you should bring forth fruit unto God. How then can you bring forth fruit unto God and manifest the fruits of the Spirit except you are already married to Christ?

Oh my, right on! You actually understand the Old Covenant and the New Covenants as the Old and New Marriage! I hardly ever find someone who comprehends this! How nice You recognize that the Jews widowed themselves in murdering their Husband! You are quite unique dear brother! They with us are Remarried when we Marry Christ raised from the dead! The One House of Israel! Of which union we are born from Above of Him and Her as spoken in Gal 4:26. Ok, I'll pipe down hah... reading on... I hope you don't mind me punching these comments out like this I hope it's ok?

 

[Jesus Martyr]

It would appear that I have come full circle, for the scripture from Jer 16:14-15 has brought me right back to the first question I posed in this thread:

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

What does it mean to inherit the earth? Have we already inherited the earth? Or are we waiting for some future kingdom in which we hope to inherit the earth? Both positions I believe could be argued for from the scripture, but the difference in the answer would more than likely depend upon which covenant with God your beliefs align with: The old covenant or the new covenant.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Under the old covenant it was said the Lord liveth that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but that saying is no more, because they put their Lord to death.
Under the new covenant it shall now be said that the Lord liveth (resurrected) that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the land wither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into the land that I gave unto their fathers.

Because we are under the new covenant, then I must assume that this is true, that the Lord has already brought them again into the land that He gave unto their fathers. Which would mean that we have already inherited the earth. Yet many people look for a future kingdom where Israel possesses the land as a nation after the manner of the flesh, and they look at the current nation as a sign of prophecy and hope, yet they do not know what they should hope for, nor do they understand that which is already theirs to possess.

But what did Abraham possess? Abraham was a tent dweller, he never possessed lands as his own nation. He followed after the Lord and went where the Lord commanded by Faith. And where ever the Lord commanded Abraham that he should go, Abraham tended the lands in the face of the nations that surrounded him, and he prospered. Joseph was sold a slave into the hand of the Egyptians, he possessed no lands, but still prospered in everything his hands touched, even ascending to rule above all others in the land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Yes again! That "Heavenly Country" I live in now! This is so fun... I love this forum

This Heavenly country has the Holiest of Holies Temple, The Altars of prayers, the Sacrifice of our bodies, Built on Mt Sion, The Foundation, the Building of The City of the Living God, The House of Israel comprised of Many Mansions (US!) the Holy Assembly, Church of the Firstborn, Spirits of Just men made perfect, 12 Gates, the River of Life, the Tree of Life and all the trees bearing the fruit of the Spirit, The Treasures in the Earth/earthen vessels... it is all so Dramatic and so NOW! I'm going to POP if I don't take a break

 

[Jesus Martyr]

The law was added until the Seed should come.

The Abrahamic Covenant was before the law ["old Covenant"] and is what we are grafted into as believers in Jesus Christ.

The New Covenant is not a "different Covenant" but rather a "fresh Covenant" that includes the Holy Spirit for all who believe.


The New Covenant is the Abrahamic Covenant that the Lord Himself has now shed His Blood to Confirm for all who believe [obey] the Gospel.


Galatians 3 -

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham...

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


No one can disconnect the law and commandments of God, that Abraham was commended for obeying, from the New Testament.


because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5


Abraham was commended for walking with God and obeying His Voice, and keeping His commandments and laws.

How much more are we to walk in obedience to these things who have been given His Spirit?


JLB

Yes amen

 

[Jesus Martyr]

JLB,

I believe your response to my post needs a response. As pointed out in the opening post: “I think everyone recognizes that there are two Covenants, the Old and the New.” This is a true statement but you do not recognize it a true.

While the Abrahamic Covenant is undoubtedly extremely important, it does not enter into any discussion of “Old Covenant (or Old Testament)” and “New Covenant (or New Testament”) in Scripture. Therefore to introduce it in this discussion is to simply confuse the issue. (The words “covenant” and “testament” are used interchangeably in Scripture).

The only occurrence of the term “Old Testament” is found in 2 Corinthians 3:14 which says “But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of THE OLD TESTAMENT; which vail is done away in Christ”. The context (2 Cor. 3:1-18) makes it very clear that Paul is here contrasting the Old Testament (and in particular the Torah or the Law of Moses) with the New Testament (verse 6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of THE NEW TESTAMENT"). The epistle to the Hebrews develops this contrast in even more detail, and once again compares the Law of Moses to the New Covenant in Christ. There is no reference to the Abrahamic Covenant in either 2 Corinthians or the book of Hebrews.

You also said: "The New Covenant is not a "different Covenant" but rather a "fresh Covenant" that includes the Holy Spirit for all who believe."
This statement is quite incorrect (although the gift of the Holy Spirit is true), since Scripture clearly reveals that the Old Covenant was merely types and shadows, but the New Covenant is the reality and the ultimate covenant. Notice what it says in Hebrews 8:4,5,7,8-10,13):
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The New Covenant is new not only because it was ratified with the blood of Christ, but because God’s Law was written in the hearts of believers rather than on tables of stone.

You said "No one can disconnect the law and commandments of God, that Abraham was commended for obeying, from the New Testament."

What if God Himself has set aside the Old Covenant with all its laws and commandments, and replaced it with the New Covenant and the Law of Christ? Are you going to argue with Him? (Hebrews 10:1,19-22).
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

----------------------------

What if? If I was one of those Hebrews which were addressed by this unknown author I would at the very least search the scriptures to see if this thing said were so.

When I do I find the expression, "All His commandments are sure, they stand fast forever and ever, (eternally)". When I read that I find it evidence of the eternity of the laws לְעוֹלָם (forever), and לָעַד (eternally), imply an uninterrupted and endless course of time. I am also met with the unmistakable use of the two words in the Psalm 148:6, "And He has established them forever and ever (eternally), He has given an ordinance and it shall not be infringed." The passage, "And I will keep Thy commandments continually for ever and ever," alludes to a period unlimited by time. Now for ici g on the cake in Exodus 15:18, the words יהוהיִמְלֹךְ לְעֹלָם וָעֶד "YHVH shall rule forever and ever (eternally)".

I, like those Hebrews addressed in that letter hopefully did would be to reject the idea that YHVH's commandments were a temporary thing and done away with.

You mean like this?

2Co_3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(2Co 3:3) manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
2Co_3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(2Co 3:14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

I would also add that in my faith there is absolutely nothing new about grace, nothing new at all, many have found it. Yes Ez, even before you knew the meaning of the word you were already living in it because of the grace of YHVH.

And God said, This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for everlasting generations;
I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and the earth.
And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud;
And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
And God said to Noah, This is the sign of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

What??

(Joh 1:17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

You have the Law of Moses by commandments of stone. And you have Grace through Jesus Christ written in our hearts.
Law. Grace. Opposites.
And we have a Bible to know that. One is not the other...

(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Opposites)

(Rom 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
(Rom 4:16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (We are only the Children of Abraham by Grace. Not the Law of commandments)
(Isa 51:2) Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

 

[reba]

I do not see the Law and Grace as opposites I see the law because of Grace
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Psalms 25:4-14
Shew me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths.
Lead me in thy truth, and teach me:
for thou art the God of my salvation;
on thee do I wait all the day.
Remember, O Lord, thy tender mercies and thy lovingkindnesses;
for they have been ever of old.
Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions:
according to thy mercy remember thou me
for thy goodness 'sake, O Lord.
Good and upright is the Lord:
therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
The meek will he guide in judgment:
and the meek will he teach his way.
All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth
unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
For thy name's sake, O Lord,
pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
What man is he that feareth the Lord?
him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
His soul shall dwell at ease;
and his seed shall inherit the earth.
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him;
and he will shew them his covenant.

I love this Psalm. Can anyone tell me what is the way that the Lord has chosen that he might instruct you?

.

O O I can! (hand waving)

(2Ti 3:15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Which say;

(Luk 8:10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
(1Co 2:16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(Joh 15:15)Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
(Joh 16:13)Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,thatshall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(Joh 16:14)He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shewitunto you.
(Joh 16:15)All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shewitunto you.
(Joh 14:3)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am,thereye may be also.
(Joh 14:18)I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(Mat 28:20)Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,evenunto the end of the world. Amen.
(Rev 3:20)Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(Heb 13:5)Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

I do not see the Law and Grace as opposites I see the law because of Grace
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

I don't understand your post at all my dear, or how the verses following relate, but you just might have something there I just don't know

 

[Jesus Martyr]

The way the Lord has chosen to instruct you by is the way of sin.


.

Here is where I'm pretty sure you just "jumped the shark"... and you were doing incredible to this point. I'm looking hard...

 

[reba]

I do not see the Law and Grace as opposites I see the law because of Grace Let me try again...

We have Grace because of His love... In reading Deu33:3 in context.... Because of His love for His people He gave them the Law...
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Deu 4 tells me there was life in those laws..
4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.


Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Thank you for posting all that scripture without really adding anything to the conversation.

.

Yes, for sure jumped the shark. Some brethren have been right smart with scriptures countering the "has chosen to instruct you by way of sin"... and the scriptures I provided sure shows how we are instructed and it is most certainly by the Holy Spirit of Christ in us... but wow, you have had some of the most beautiful insight on the Covenant(s) and how we are Now in the New Covenant. It has been like WheeeEEE! Thank you so much EZ

 

[Jesus Martyr]

I do not see the Law and Grace as opposites I see the law because of Grace Let me try again...

We have Grace because of His love... In reading Deu33:3 in context.... Because of His love for His people He gave them the Law...
Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Deu 4 tells me there was life in those laws..
4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.


Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

I have grace because of Christ. Christ is Love. If you are saying that, then I can go with it

I suppose I could say come up with a concept about God being Grace/Love because of anything and everything He's done in the past. (?) But perhaps we need some common ground on the subject before I can get a grasp on what you are disagreeing with.

What do you think of this verse... you said you disagree that Law and Grace were opposites... I see them as opposites. I don't see where life came forth from that law other than Jesus, for He's the only one who could keep it. But as for me;

(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Law kills. Grace gives life.

I am under Grace in Christ and have life. I am not under the Law of sin and death.
Law = death.
Grace= life
Are we good so far? Because I am not still grasping what you are trying to say dear. But I'm old haha!

 

[Jesus Martyr]

The condemnation of Adam was not that he did not keep the commandment.
.

Gen_2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen_3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?