Bible Study Two Covenants: The Old and New

[Jethro Bodine]

Thank you for posting all that scripture without really adding anything to the conversation.

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We showed you where God does not teach us by leading us into sin, but by instructing us with his word as he teaches it to us himself (Psalm 119:102 NASB) by the voice of the Holy Spirit.

I think your contention lies in how God teaches us and leads us into truth. Many assail the truth, blaming it for the failure of man. But actually it is man that failed the old covenant and the law (Hebrews 9:7-8 NASB). That being true, God made a New Covenant that better accommodates the weak link in the whole thing--the sinfulness of man, not the supposed evil of the old covenant and which is supposedly death for mankind (Romans 7:13 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"(S)in, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good (the law) become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good..." (Romans 7:11-13 NASB bold and italics mine)

 

[ezrider]

Like the prophets of old would say to you, come and let us reason together.

Why do you assume that the absence of sin is the measure of perfection? Bear ye one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ (Gal 6:2) The commandment of the Lord is to forgive one another, as He has forgiven us.

So if there was nos sin, why would grace be then necessary? Why as the Psalmist declares are all His Ways Mercy and Truth. If there was no sin, then why the need for mercy?

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[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you assume that the absence of sin is the measure of perfection?

I'm assuming Jesus means God is perfect as in not sinful:

""Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48 NASB)

This means in every situation we encounter we are to respond perfectly as the Father would, and having our imperfection washed away through God's forgiveness when we fail. In this way we can be perfect like He is perfect--holy like he is holy.

 

[ezrider]

I'm assuming Jesus means God is perfect as in not sinful:

""Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48 NASB)

This means in every situation we encounter we are to respond perfectly as the Father would, and having our imperfection washed away through God's forgiveness when we fail. In this way we can be perfect like He is perfect--holy like he is holy.

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Be perfect as your Father which is in heaven is perfect: perfect in Grace and perfect in Mercy. Forgive one another, love one another, and be no respecter of persons.

In the garden of Eden. Do you think that Adam lived in the absence of sin? Or did Adam live in the absence of the "Knowledge of Sin?"

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[ezrider]

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For he hath made him, being Christ, to be sin for us.

Why would he make Christ to be sin for us?



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[ezrider]

Romans 5:12-17
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world:but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.


The free gift is of many offenses unto justification.


Romans 5:20-21
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


If you by your own righteousness do the works of the Law and do no sin, then how should you receive of the Lord's Grace? And if you are not under the Lord's Grace, then how should you receive his instruction? For he shall teach sinner in the way.


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[Jethro Bodine]

Be perfect as your Father which is in heaven is perfect: perfect in Grace and perfect in Mercy. Forgive one another, love one another, and be no respecter of persons.

Amen. We are to keep the law regarding love, forgiveness, and in being no respecter of persons:

"18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge...you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)

"15 'You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial * to the poor nor defer * to the great..." (Leviticus 19:15 NASB)

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 11 ...by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward." (Psalm 19:7-8,11 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the garden of Eden. Do you think that Adam lived in the absence of sin? Or did Adam live in the absence of the "Knowledge of Sin?"

The knowledge of sin did not come until the commandment 'do not eat' came.

"9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died" (Romans 7:9 NASB bold mine)

And when they violated the commandment, that is when they died:

"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God "; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (not the law). 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:13-15 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For he hath made him, being Christ, to be sin for us.

Why would he make Christ to be sin for us?



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To bear our sins becoming a guilt offering for our sins, making intercession, thus justifying us before the Father:

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. 10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because * He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:4-12 NASB)

 

[jocor]

And for all of your obedience to the LAW, what does the law reveal to you? Is it not SIN?

Yes, it reveals sin. Since Yeshua's desire for us is to go and sin no more, then his desire for us is to go and stop breaking His Father's laws. The Law also reveals how desperately sinful we are; how badly we need a Savior and a sacrifice for sin; the glory and holiness of YHWH; His love, grace, mercy and forgiveness; and who His people are.

 

[ezrider]

The way the Lord has chosen to instruct you by is the way of sin.


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I disagree.

And for all of your obedience to the LAW, what does the law reveal to you? Is it not SIN?

Yes, it reveals sin.

So apparently you do agree with me after all, for the way the Lord has chosen to instruct you is by the way of sin.

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[ezrider]

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The blood of Christ on the cross did not free you from the act of sin in the flesh, but instead was the answer of a good conscience toward God. Having a clear conscience toward God concerning all of the sins of our flesh will then free us to then answer for the one sin that really matters, to answer for the sin of Adam's transgression.


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[ezrider]

Hebrews 9:11-15
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


This brings us right back to the topic of the OP, the two covenants. For his sacrifice was for the redemption of the transgression that were under the old covenant.

So who here was brought up under the old covenant according to the laws of Moses that you should require redemption form those transgressions. But we are not under the old covenant, for that covenant has been done away with and its world has already come to an end (Heb 9:26).


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[jocor]

So apparently you do agree with me after all, for the way the Lord has chosen to instruct you is by the way of sin.

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There is a big difference between the law revealing sin and YHWH instructing us by the way of sin. He instructs us by the way of obedience to His laws. When we disobey, the Law tells us we just sinned and need forgiveness. Sin does not instruct us. Sin is simply the unrighteous, unholy, evil result of breaking the Law. It is YHWH that instructs us through the way of the Law .

 

[jocor]

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The blood of Christ on the cross did not free you from the act of sin in the flesh, but instead was the answer of a good conscience toward God. Having a clear conscience toward God concerning all of the sins of our flesh will then free us to then answer for the one sin that really matters, to answer for the sin of Adam's transgression.
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What does "the act of sin in the flesh" mean? Are you saying Yeshua's shed blood does not cleanse me from the sins of theft, adultery, idolatry, etc.? His death cleanses me from all acts of sin. Afterwards, after the sins are removed, then our conscience is clear of sins.

Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
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This verse teaches us that animal sacrifices did not cleanse the conscience. Why? Because it was not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin (verse 4). However, Yeshua's blood did take away sin. After the sin was removed, we had no more conscience of the sins we committed in the past. That is not to say our conscience is always clean or that we can't sin anymore.

As for answering for Adam's transgression, that is NOT something that we must answer for after our conscience is clear. Yeshua answered it for us at his death BEFORE our conscience was cleared.

 

[jocor]

Hebrews 9:11-15
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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This passage does not state the exact time the conscience is cleansed, but only the means of the cleansing, the blood of Messiah. First his blood was shed. Afterwards our conscience was cleansed. A person must first understand that Yeshua took his sins upon himself and took them totally away. Then, after realizing his sins are gone, his conscience is clear.

 

[jocor]

So who here was brought up under the old covenant according to the laws of Moses that you should require redemption form those transgressions. But we are not under the old covenant, for that covenant has been done away with and its world has already come to an end (Heb 9:26).
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What does it matter "who here" was brought up under the OC? There are believers all over the world that were brought up under the OC and required redemption from those transgressions. Once they receive Yeshua they enter into the NC and that redemption is complete.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is a big difference between the law revealing sin and YHWH instructing us by the way of sin.

Yes, there is a BIG difference.

I think ezrider has changed his argument. I think it started out as 'the Lord has chosen to instruct you by the way of sinning' to 'the Lord has chosen to instruct you by the way of revealing the truth about sin to you'. Which he had to since we posted lots of scripture that shows that God is not leading us into the way of sin to instruct us, but into the instruction and wisdom of the way of righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This brings us right back to the topic of the OP, the two covenants. For his sacrifice was for the redemption of the transgression that were under the old covenant.

Not just for the redemption of those under the condemnation of the old covenant, but his sacrifice is for the redemption of those who are under the condemnation of Adam:

"18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." (Romans 5:18 NASB)

The condemnation of Adam is that he did not keep the commandment given to him:

"by breaking a command, as did Adam" (Romans 5:14 NIV)

All of mankind is under that condemnation--before, during, and after the old covenant. Christ came to remove the condemnation of breaking God's commandment(s):

"19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 3:19 NASB)