Bible Study Two Covenants: The Old and New

[ezrider]

Where do we read in Scripture that "the Law has been judged"?

Romans 8:3-6
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord:for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now once in the end of the world. The end of what world? The world of those under the first covenant.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


What is the promise of eternal inheritance?

Luke 24:44-49
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 1:3-5
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

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[jocor]

Do you count yourself among the unbelievers? Why are you so quick to say this is true for unbelievers? The reprove of the Holy Spirit is for the believers, and yet you seem so quick to discount that? For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved (John 3:20).

Of course I do not count myself among unbelievers. I am a child of Almighty YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah, my Master and Savior.

It is true of unbelievers because that is exactly what the verse says:

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;
​

Believers are not "the world" (John 17:14-16).

I know full well the Holy Spirit reproves. I have never discounted that. Please show me where I have.

 

[jocor]

But the prophets foretold of another Law of God coming forth from Zion.

Isaiah 2:3
And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem

Micah 4:2
And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.


I know that you have heard the Law of Moses as it was received in Sinai on the Mountain of God. But have you heard the Law as is was sent forth from Zion?

Which commandment do you follow: the one from Zion or the one from Sinai?

The verses you quoted say NOTHING about "another Law of God". Nor do they say the law (Torah) spoken of is different from the law (Torah) that already existed. Isaiah and Micah were prophesying to Israel who was living by the Law of Moses. Neither prophet qualified their statements to help Israel understand that the already existing Torah was not meant.

Can you show us where in the scriptures we find this new law as it went forth out of Zion? Or are you still waiting for the law to come forth from Zion?
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It will be fulfilled in it's greatest sense during the millennium, but it began to be fulfilled in Messiah's day through the New Covenant. The covenant is new, not the law. The external law was simply administered differently by internalizing it through writing it on hearts and minds.

 

[jocor]

Romans 8:3-6
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

This is not a judgment of the law, but of sin (breaking the law). Those that walk in the Spirit will obey the law and fulfill it's righteousness.

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord:for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This is not a judgment of the law. It was a declaration that a New Covenant was needed because fault was found in the people, not in the law. The law is perfect (Psalm 19:7), the people are not. So He took His holy, just and good laws and internalized them on hearts and minds.

Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now once in the end of the world. The end of what world? The world of those under the first covenant.

This is a judgment against sin, not the law.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


What is the promise of eternal inheritance?

This is a judgment against sin (transgressions), not the law. The eternal inheritance is eternal life in the Kingdom of YHWH (Kingdom of Heaven) (Mt 25:34; Luke 10:25; 1Co 6:9-10; Eph 5:5). It is not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ezrider]

It will be fulfilled in it's greatest sense during the millennium, but it began to be fulfilled in Messiah's day through the New Covenant. The covenant is new, not the law. The external law was simply administered differently by internalizing

So I guess what you are saying then is that you can not point to the words of the Law that came forth from Zion in the scriptures?


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[jocor]

So I guess what you are saying then is that you can not point to the words of the Law that came forth from Zion in the scriptures?
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The primary words would be the two greatest commandments followed by the Ten, IMHO. Please enlighten me what you believe those words were.

 

[ezrider]

The primary words would be the two greatest commandments followed by the Ten, IMHO. Please enlighten me what you believe those words were.

I would like to answer this for you, but being that we are communicating via a web site I can not determine if you are sincere in asking me to enlighten your understanding. Do you truly wish to understand, or are you one looking for another point the you might content with. From our past interactions I would probably lean toward the latter, but there is a part of me that hopes someone might be sincere and honestly like to understand something they have not heard before.

Are you sincere in your request for me to enlighten you on the words of the law as they came forth from Zion?

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[jocor]

I would like to answer this for you, but being that we are communicating via a web site I can not determine if you are sincere in asking me to enlighten your understanding. Do you truly wish to understand, or are you one looking for another point the you might content with. From our past interactions I would probably lean toward the latter, but there is a part of me that hopes someone might be sincere and honestly like to understand something they have not heard before.

Are you sincere in your request for me to enlighten you on the words of the law as they came forth from Zion?
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I gave you my opinion and now I am sincerely asking for yours. I used the word "enlighten" to mean "to light up my understanding of what you believe." For all I know, I heard it before, but perhaps you will tell me something new. However, don't be surprised if I disagree with you. Your response needs to be based on Scripture.

 

[ezrider]

I gave you my opinion and now I am sincerely asking for yours. I used the word "enlighten" to mean "to light up my understanding of what you believe." For all I know, I heard it before, but perhaps you will tell me something new. However, don't be surprised if I disagree with you. Your response needs to be based on Scripture.

The law as it came forth from Zion can be found in Matthew chapters 5, 6 & 7, otherwise known as the sermon on the mount. The law of Moses from mount Sinai begins with the 10 commandment. The law of Christ form mount Zion begins with the 10 blessings.

The scriptures that I gave you from Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 were fulfilled in Christ in the sermon on the mount. That is all I shall say for now. I can say more, but that will depend on how this is received. The next move is on you, but if we are to go further, then your questions will have to be based upon the scriptures that I want to talk about, not other scripture that you wish to introduce as some sort of challenge or to change the subject. If you cannot ask questions about the subject matter that I am presenting, then there will be no need for me to respond, so please keep this in mind when you respond to this post.


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[jocor]

The law as it came forth from Zion can be found in Matthew chapters 5, 6 & 7, otherwise known as the sermon on the mount. The law of Moses from mount Sinai begins with the 10 commandment. The law of Christ form mount Zion begins with the 10 blessings.

The scriptures that I gave you from Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 were fulfilled in Christ in the sermon on the mount. That is all I shall say for now. I can say more, but that will depend on how this is received. The next move is on you, but if we are to go further, then your questions will have to be based upon the scriptures that I want to talk about, not other scripture that you wish to introduce as some sort of challenge or to change the subject. If you cannot ask questions about the subject matter that I am presenting, then there will be no need for me to respond, so please keep this in mind when you respond to this post.
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Here are some questions related to the subject matter:

1) Where are we told that "the Sermon on the Mount" is "the Law of Christ' or are you just assuming that?
2) How are the 10 blessings a "law"?
3) How can the Sermon on the Mount be the law from "Zion" (Jerusalem) if the Sermon was given from a mountain in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee?​

 

[ezrider]

Here are some questions related to the subject matter:

1) Where are we told that "the Sermon on the Mount" is "the Law of Christ' or are you just assuming that?
2) How are the 10 blessings a "law"?
3) How can the Sermon on the Mount be the law from "Zion" (Jerusalem) if the Sermon was given from a mountain in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee?​

Thank you. I am going to ask you to be patient, I am on a long needed vacation and am traveling up into the mountains where I do not expect my wifi to work.

We are not told that the sermon on the mount is the Law of Christ, somethings truly are left to faith. You seemingly took exception a few posts back in this thread when I asked if you believed in the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us blinded to things in the old testament, for there are many things that still remain hidden to us. But no, I am making no assumptions. This is what the Spirit of the Lord has shown me and so I that is what I am sharing with you.

I would ask you to go and read Deuteronomy 18:15-19 and then think about what Moses is commanding you to do and why was he telling you to listen to that Prophet?

The 10 blessings are simply in contrast to the ten commandments, but I think the term "law" implies a meaning not always intended. I might ask how is the commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" a law?

Zion is a heaveny mountain, and the word came forth from Zion. Jesus is the new Jerusalem.


Now let me ask something of you. I would ask of you to consider the prophecy of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4, and then consider the words that Jesus spoke in those chapters on the sermon on the mount and then tell me if you can how the beating their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks fits in with the gospel message delivered in the sermon on the mount.


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[smaller]

I would submit that both Covenants currently remain firmly in place, as noted by Paul, here for example:

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Where it get's problematic is when we see we are also sinners. Then the LAW pushes us into Christ, fully reliant on Him, Alone.

That does not mean however that the Law doesn't continue to do it's work.

Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4 is the Dictate from Jesus. And I will readily admit this is HARD to understand, particularly when observing the Words we do not care for or want to apply to ourselves.

 

[jocor]

Thank you. I am going to ask you to be patient, I am on a long needed vacation and am traveling up into the mountains where I do not expect my wifi to work.

We are not told that the sermon on the mount is the Law of Christ, somethings truly are left to faith. You seemingly took exception a few posts back in this thread when I asked if you believed in the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us blinded to things in the old testament, for there are many things that still remain hidden to us. But no, I am making no assumptions. This is what the Spirit of the Lord has shown me and so I that is what I am sharing with you.

I would ask you to go and read Deuteronomy 18:15-19 and then think about what Moses is commanding you to do and why was he telling you to listen to that Prophet?

He was telling us to listen to that Prophet (Yeshua) because he would be speaking the words of YHWH. However, the words that Yeshua spoke do not negate the words that YHWH already spoke in giving Israel His Torah. In fact, Yeshua came to magnify the Torah and did so in the Sermon on the Mount.

Isa 42:21 YHWH is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law (Torah), and make it honourable.
​

Two examples of this from that sermon is magnifying "Thou shall not commit adultery" to include not just the act, but the lust of the heart and magnifying "Thou shall not murder" to include anger towards one's brother without a cause.

The 10 blessings are simply in contrast to the ten commandments, but I think the term "law" implies a meaning not always intended. I might ask how is the commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" a law?

It is a law because it was something commanded by YHWH. The 10 blessings are not commandments, but statements of fact. Yeshua was not commanding us to be persecuted for righteousness sake, but if we are persecuted in that way we are blessed.

Zion is a heaveny mountain, and the word came forth from Zion. Jesus is the new Jerusalem.

How can "Jesus" be the "new Jerusalem" if New Jerusalem comes down from heaven as the Lamb's bride?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,​

Now let me ask something of you. I would ask of you to consider the prophecy of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4, and then consider the words that Jesus spoke in those chapters on the sermon on the mount and then tell me if you can how the beating their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks fits in with the gospel message delivered in the sermon on the mount.
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If we apply those words in a spiritual way, they can somewhat apply to believers as we become peacemakers and love one another. Yet, even today there are quarrels, backbiting, slanders, gossip, etc. throughout Christianity. We have a plethora of denominations today because we cannot live at peace with one another when doctrines differ. The ultimate fulfillment will take place during the millennium when nations fulfill it by not making war with one another because they will all be under Messiah Yeshua's rule.

 

[jocor]

I would submit that both Covenants currently remain firmly in place, as noted by Paul, here for example:

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Where it get's problematic is when we see we are also sinners. Then the LAW pushes us into Christ, fully reliant on Him, Alone.

That does not mean however that the Law doesn't continue to do it's work.

Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4 is the Dictate from Jesus. And I will readily admit this is HARD to understand, particularly when observing the Words we do not care for or want to apply to ourselves.

I agree with you for the most part, but when you say "both Covenants currently remain firmly in place," are you implying that believers are living under both covenants at the same time or that believers live under the New while, at the same time, unbelieving Jews live under the Old?

 

[smaller]

I agree with you for the most part, but when you say "both Covenants currently remain firmly in place," are you implying that believers are living under both covenants at the same time or that believers live under the New while, at the same time, unbelieving Jews live under the Old?

Not at all. First of all we are to live by every Word of God according to Jesus. Luke 4:4 and Matt. 4:4 as particular examples.

Secondly, the Old Covenant didn't pass away, it CHANGED. Every Word of God became the Living Word, made flesh in Him.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Priesthood changed to Christ. So did every Word of God, become flesh and dwelt among us. Acts 7:44-45 shows that it was JESUS that was "carried" in the tabernacle.

Technically speaking if Christ dwells in us, then does every Word of God also dwell "in us."

Finally, and this is a BIG one which really changed "how" I came around on viewing/understanding law. We know for example that Satan is also moved into adverse actions by the Word, which includes the Law. See Mark 4:15 and all the seed parables, showing this fact of Satan's adverse movement INTO man in various ways. So the LAW does prompt Satan to resist. We also know that Satan is a SINNER as well. See 1 John 3:8 for an example of the devil's involvement with "sin." And of course the "law" is made for sinners, hence the Law is really, at it's core AGAINST Satan and his messengers. In this LIGHT we should regard the law as our ally, because it is against the "real" lawless ones, Satan and his messengers.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

It is made precisely to aggravate and arouse SIN, and does so by essentially forcing Satan into temptation thoughts IN man. Which is also why "we" can't keep the letter of the law. Evil thoughts defile all of us and comes from within. Matt. 15:19-20 Mark 7:21-22. Because it's not just "us" that is involved. Satan automatically resists the law IN man, in ALL of us, just as Paul shows in Romans 7:13, by insertion of lusts leading to temptations. Paul himself suffered under these influences of Satan. See Romans 11:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7 and 1 Tim. 1:15 for the more easy examples to follow. Satan also "steals Word" from people's hearts, which is A SIN. And thereby blinds people. 2 Cor. 4:4, Hebrews 11:8 2 Cor. 3:14

There is one thing however, with the spiritual intentions of every law (Romans 13:8-10) that Satan absolutely can NOT DO, which is to love our neighbors as ourselves. The anti-Christ spirit, which IS Satan, absolutely CAN NOT DO THIS. We however CAN, because Christ is IN US to do so.

So there you have it.

 

[jocor]

Not at all.

"Not at all" what? That believers are living under both covenants at the same time or that believers live under the New while, at the same time, unbelieving Jews live under the Old?

First of all we are to live by every Word of God according to Jesus. Luke 4:4 and Matt. 4:4 as particular examples.

Secondly, the Old Covenant didn't pass away, it CHANGED. Every Word of God became the Living Word, made flesh in Him.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Priesthood changed to Christ. So did every Word of God, become flesh and dwelt among us. Acts 7:44-45 shows that it was JESUS that was "carried" in the tabernacle.

The only thing that changed in the law was the law stating the high priest must descend from Aaron. The law pertaining to the Aaronic priesthood had to change to allow for a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Yahweh Himself made the change in Torah the moment He spoke the oath in Psalm 110:4.

When correctly translated, Acts 7:44-45 reads;

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of the testimony in the wilderness, even as he appointed who spake unto Moses, that he should make it according to the figure that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers, in their turn, brought in with Joshua when they entered on the possession of the nations, that God thrust out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; ASV​

The KJV erroneously used "Jesus" in verse 45 rather than "Joshua". Both names are spelled the same in Greek (Iesous). It was Joshua the son of Nun that carried the tabernacle of the testimony into the promised land prior to the time of David.

Technically speaking if Christ dwells in us, then does every Word of God also dwell "in us."

Correct. However, "dwelling in" and "obeying" are two different things. We can still disobey the Word even though Messiah dwells in us. If we steal, commit adultery, idolatry, covet, break the Sabbath, etc., then we are not obeying the Word.

Finally, and this is a BIG one which really changed "how" I came around on viewing/understanding law. We know for example that Satan is also moved into adverse actions by the Word, which includes the Law. See Mark 4:15 and all the seed parables, showing this fact of Satan's adverse movement INTO man in various ways. So the LAW does prompt Satan to resist. We also know that Satan is a SINNER as well. See 1 John 3:8 for an example of the devil's involvement with "sin." And of course the "law" is made for sinners, hence the Law is really, at it's core AGAINST Satan and his messengers. In this LIGHT we should regard the law as our ally, because it is against the "real" lawless ones, Satan and his messengers.

1 Corinthians 15:56

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

It is made precisely to aggravate and arouse SIN, and does so by essentially forcing Satan into temptation thoughts IN man. Which is also why "we" can't keep the letter of the law. Evil thoughts defile all of us and comes from within. Matt. 15:19-20 Mark 7:21-22. Because it's not just "us" that is involved. Satan automatically resists the law IN man, in ALL of us, just as Paul shows in Romans 7:13, by insertion of lusts leading to temptations. Paul himself suffered under these influences of Satan. See Romans 11:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7 and 1 Tim. 1:15 for the more easy examples to follow. Satan also "steals Word" from people's hearts, which is A SIN. And thereby blinds people. 2 Cor. 4:4, Hebrews 11:8 2 Cor. 3:14

There is one thing however, with the spiritual intentions of every law (Romans 13:8-10) that Satan absolutely can NOT DO, which is to love our neighbors as ourselves. The anti-Christ spirit, which IS Satan, absolutely CAN NOT DO THIS. We however CAN, because Christ is IN US to do so.

So there you have it.

If we can love our neighbor as ourselves because Messiah is in us, then why can't we obey the letter of the law for the same reason? If Yeshua obeyed the letter of the law and he is our example to follow, then why can't we do it as well? We are told to "sin no more". Why would we be told that if it was impossible for us?

 

[smaller]

"Not at all" what? That believers are living under both covenants at the same time or that believers live under the New while, at the same time, unbelieving Jews live under the Old?

There is LIFE in every Word of God, meant for us all to have. If people see death therein, what can I really say to that? I believe in Life.

The only thing that changed in the law was the law stating the high priest must descend from Aaron. The law pertaining to the Aaronic priesthood had to change to allow for a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Yahweh Himself made the change in Torah the moment He spoke the oath in Psalm 110:4.

When correctly translated, Acts 7:44-45 reads;
Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of the testimony in the wilderness, even as he appointed who spake unto Moses, that he should make it according to the figure that he had seen.
Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers, in their turn, brought in with Joshua when they entered on the possession of the nations, that God thrust out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; ASV

The KJV erroneously used "Jesus" in verse 45 rather than "Joshua". Both names are spelled the same in Greek (Iesous). It was Joshua the son of Nun that carried the tabernacle of the testimony into the promised land prior to the time of David.

If we understand that Jesus IS The Word, John 1:14, which He Is, THEN the math dictates that it was THE WORD, Jesus, who was carried in the tabernacle, just as Stephen noted, correct spelling notwithstanding. Joshua, the man at that time was NOT The Living Word, Jesus. It was also Jesus who spoke to the prophets, as shown here by Peter:

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If we understand this, we also understand that The Word is STILL alive, and always will be. Hebrews 4:12. The Word IS Living and Active.

Correct. However, "dwelling in" and "obeying" are two different things. We can still disobey the Word even though Messiah dwells in us. If we steal, commit adultery, idolatry, covet, break the Sabbath, etc., then we are not obeying the Word.

The Living Word is always resisted within us by the tempter. So it is not just a matter of "us" alone dealing with these subjects. Jesus shows us that it is also the tempter, Satan, who is also moved to act adversely to the commands of God, and does so IN man. It is quite pointless to try to make that adverse worker "legal" or "obedient" regardless of what transpires on the outside. The progression of sin begins in "thought." And is a progression from there to then word, and finally in deed. The "deed" of sin shows a full blown slave of sin. But the "initial sin" transpires within everyone in the form of adverse or evil THOUGHT, as delineated in the scriptures I noted prior. Matt. 5:28 shows the same thing. Just because a man doesn't "do" adultery in the external senses doesn't mean they haven't "committed" already in their hearts.

Jesus magnified the law in this manner, showing that "evil thoughts" are in fact defiling, and as such, are SIN. Any person in faith who is NOT dealing with the tempter internally and knowing it, really isn't even in faith. The law makes us realize our factual conditions of having indwelling sin in our flesh that can do no other things but to resist every Word of God in Christ AND including the LAW. Paul delineates this quite nicely for himself in Romans 7, concluding that evil was in fact present with him. Romans 7:21. Paul didn't try to "dress up" this evil inner pig by hiding behind the law.

If we can love our neighbor as ourselves because Messiah is in us, then why can't we obey the letter of the law for the same reason? If Yeshua obeyed the letter of the law and he is our example to follow, then why can't we do it as well? We are told to "sin no more". Why would we be told that if it was impossible for us?

Every last command in the entire Bible was transcribed to be spiritual in nature and fulfilled in us by loving our neighbors as ourselves. Romans 13:10-13 That is the spirit of the LAW, and the first and last dictate on the matters. Satan can not do this. It is factually impossible for Satan to do this. We can, and in this way, fulfill. If someone thinks that they also can't eat pork in the process, so be it. That really wouldn't matter to me. I don't see the law in that way anyway. It is ALL spiritual, and has other connotations beneath the surface. If we look at how Paul transcribed an obscure LAW of the O.T. in 1 Cor. 9, we'll see how Paul handled the law.

Paul, in effect, allegorized the entirety of the law and even the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael in Galatians 4, which is the foundation of most of christian understandings of the O.T. and the N.T. And Paul was right. The LAW is in fact a form of parable, noted here for example by Jesus:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

God through the Spirit of Christ also spoke to the prophets by similitudes, which is similar to parable as well:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

And, again, here:

Psalm 78:
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

When Jesus said, for example, do not cast pearls before swine, He was speaking of neither swine nor pearls in the physical senses of the matters. All of His Matters are PARABOLIC, and performed by ALLEGORY.

The Law is spiritual, and every Word LIVES in us in the form of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

 

[ezrider]

Every last command in the entire Bible was transcribed to be spiritual in nature and fulfilled in us by loving our neighbors as ourselves. Romans 13:10-13 That is the spirit of the LAW, and the first and last dictate on the matters. Satan can not do this. It is factually impossible for Satan to do this. We can, and in this way, fulfill. If someone thinks that they also can't eat pork in the process, so be it. That really wouldn't matter to me. I don't see the law in that way anyway. It is ALL spiritual, and has other connotations beneath the surface. If we look at how Paul transcribed an obscure LAW of the O.T. in 1 Cor. 9, we'll see how Paul handled the law.

When you say that Satan can't do this, I am reminded of the comment by Jesus when he wa accused of being Beelzebub. Can Satan cast out Satan? The answer is no.

We have the light of the word through Christ and that light allows us to be cognizant of our own sins so the Lord might instruct us by that knowledge. The spirit of Satan does not see his own sin, but clearly sees those sins in another, and by the power given unto him through the law, the spirit of Satan then causes the believe to become the accuser of the brethren.

Without the law, there is no measure for hypocricy, and without the law sin has no power over us thus rendering the devil impotent.

.

 

[smaller]

I have no issues for the law being against Satan and his messengers. This is the foundation and promise of their coming destruction. They are not judged without specific cause, delineated in the law, and proved by sin.

 

[jocor]

There is LIFE in every Word of God, meant for us all to have. If people see death therein, what can I really say to that? I believe in Life.

This still doesn't answer my question. I will rephrase it. Please explain what you meant by, "I would submit that both Covenants currently remain firmly in place ..." Do they both remain in place in a believer's life?

If we understand that Jesus IS The Word, John 1:14, which He Is, THEN the math dictates that it was THE WORD, Jesus, who was carried in the tabernacle, just as Stephen noted, correct spelling notwithstanding. Joshua, the man at that time was NOT The Living Word, Jesus.

I prefer to not read Yeshua into the text of John 1:1-4, but view the logos as an it", not a "he". That is how Bibles preceding the KJV rendered it (Tyndale, Matthew's Bible, The Great Bible, Geneva Bible, Bishop's Bible). That would show that the logos was not Yeshua prior to his birth, but that YHWH's spoken words and thoughts became Yeshua. I do not want to turn this thread into a pre-existence discussion. I'm just giving you some of the history behind John 1.

It was also Jesus who spoke to the prophets, as shown here by Peter:

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If we understand this passage in that sense, it conflicts with Hebrews 1:1-2:

Heb 1:1 God (YHWH the Father), who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
​

YHWH did not speak to the fathers through His Son, but through the prophets. IMHO, the correct way to understand the phrase "the Spirit of Christ which was in them" is by understanding how the Spirit of YHWH (God) was manifested in the OT. When the Spirit is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17); with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29); relating to glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14); concerning truth it is called “the spirit of truth”(John 14:17; 16:13); These are not different spirits. All the names refer to the one gift of holy spirit that God gives. When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was upon prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” it is easy to see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

The Living Word is always resisted within us by the tempter. So it is not just a matter of "us" alone dealing with these subjects. Jesus shows us that it is also the tempter, Satan, who is also moved to act adversely to the commands of God, and does so IN man. It is quite pointless to try to make that adverse worker "legal" or "obedient" regardless of what transpires on the outside. The progression of sin begins in "thought." And is a progression from there to then word, and finally in deed. The "deed" of sin shows a full blown slave of sin. But the "initial sin" transpires within everyone in the form of adverse or evil THOUGHT, as delineated in the scriptures I noted prior. Matt. 5:28 shows the same thing. Just because a man doesn't "do" adultery in the external senses doesn't mean they haven't "committed" already in their hearts.

I agree.

Jesus magnified the law in this manner, showing that "evil thoughts" are in fact defiling, and as such, are SIN. Any person in faith who is NOT dealing with the tempter internally and knowing it, really isn't even in faith. The law makes us realize our factual conditions of having indwelling sin in our flesh that can do no other things but to resist every Word of God in Christ AND including the LAW. Paul delineates this quite nicely for himself in Romans 7, concluding that evil was in fact present with him. Romans 7:21. Paul didn't try to "dress up" this evil inner pig by hiding behind the law.

I agree.

Every last command in the entire Bible was transcribed to be spiritual in nature and fulfilled in us by loving our neighbors as ourselves. Romans 13:10-13 That is the spirit of the LAW, and the first and last dictate on the matters. Satan can not do this. It is factually impossible for Satan to do this. We can, and in this way, fulfill. If someone thinks that they also can't eat pork in the process, so be it. That really wouldn't matter to me. I don't see the law in that way anyway. It is ALL spiritual, and has other connotations beneath the surface. If we look at how Paul transcribed an obscure LAW of the O.T. in 1 Cor. 9, we'll see how Paul handled the law.

I disagree. Every law has a literal and spiritual application. You cannot keep the spirit of the Law and yet, not keep the letter. If one commits the act of adultery, he has broken the letter and the spirit of the Law. Breaking the letter of the Law is the final culmination of breaking the spirit of the Law. We can break the spirit of the law and yet, not break the letter, but the opposite does not hold true.

The following literal acts are still forbidden: fornication (1Co 5:1-11); stealing (Eph 4:28); murder (1Pe 4:15); adultery, idolatry and witchcraft (Gal 5:19-20); and on and on. We, as believers, are forbidden to break the letter of the law.

Paul, in effect, allegorized the entirety of the law and even the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael in Galatians 4, which is the foundation of most of christian understandings of the O.T. and the N.T.

Paul did no such thing. He allegorized the two covenants.

The LAW is in fact a form of parable, noted here for example by Jesus:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

God through the Spirit of Christ also spoke to the prophets by similitudes, which is similar to parable as well:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

And, again, here:

Psalm 78:
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

When Jesus said, for example, do not cast pearls before swine, He was speaking of neither swine nor pearls in the physical senses of the matters. All of His Matters are PARABOLIC, and performed by ALLEGORY.

The Law is spiritual, and every Word LIVES in us in the form of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Psalm 78:1-2 is referring to two different things; the law and parables. It is not saying the Law is parabolic.
Luke 8:11 is referring to the parable Yeshua told. It is not referring to the Law, but the Gospel.
Hosea 12:10 is referring to the things the prophets spoke, in particular, the comparisons they made in their prophesies.