Unconditional Election

[Randy]

Who are the humble?
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Is Joe Blow humble? And what does Joe Blow have that he did not receive?
So God is going to give Joe Blow humility and then reward him for that?
Sounds like predestination to me.

Whoever they are in Gods eyes He shows them grace. Nothing was stated about God giving them humility.
Is it also your belief apart from God it's impossible to be humble?



The world is full of the poor and have nots. Scripture states God lifts them up but resists the proud.

 

[Whatever]

s it also your belief apart from God it's impossible to be humble?

Depends upon what you mean by humble.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A person can be a very humble, easy going person with his neighbors, but he will not be humble when it comes to the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[Randy]

Depends upon what you mean by humble.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A person can be a very humble, easy going person with his neighbors, but he will not be humble when it comes to the things of the Spirit of God.

Satan does not have control of our wills. He appealed to Eve's desires. He attacked the meaning of Gods command to her. Lies and deceit. Eve was held responsible for the choice she made. We have free will.

God grants repentance. To who and why is debatable. We have free will.

 

[Whatever]

Satan does not have control of our wills.

Are you sure of that?
2 Timothy 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

The word "captive" there is used only one more time in the NT.
It means = to take alive (make a prisoner of war), that is, (figuratively) to capture or ensnare: - take captive, catch.
The other passage is:
Luke 5:10 and so also were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men."

Sounds like unbelievers are taken captive by the devil to do his will. Not much free will.
And notice God perhaps will grant somebody repentance.

 

[electedbyHim]

Are you sure of that?
2 Timothy 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

The word "captive" there is used only one more time in the NT.
It means = to take alive (make a prisoner of war), that is, (figuratively) to capture or ensnare: - take captive, catch.
The other passage is:
Luke 5:10 and so also were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men."

Sounds like unbelievers are taken captive by the devil to do his will. Not much free will.
And notice God perhaps will grant somebody repentance.

Jesus calls them children of the devil.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Whatever]

Free will according to Paul.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

Ephesians 4:18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Seems that if you are not born again (spiritual) you cannot be humble enough to please God.

 

[Randy]

Are you sure of that?
2 Timothy 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

The word "captive" there is used only one more time in the NT.
It means = to take alive (make a prisoner of war), that is, (figuratively) to capture or ensnare: - take captive, catch.
The other passage is:
Luke 5:10 and so also were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, "Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men."

Sounds like unbelievers are taken captive by the devil to do his will. Not much free will.
And notice God perhaps will grant somebody repentance.

Yes otherwise he would have no need to trick, lie and deceive. Many people in this world are not evil.
There are people in this world totally given over to evil but not all. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. A distinction made on dispensing grace.

Jesus stated if the works he performed were performed in Sodom they would have remained to that day. We know they were highly sexually immoral.

 

[Whatever]

es otherwise he would have no need to trick, lie and deceive. Many people in this world are not evil.

It is only evil people that can be tricked and deceived. The devil tried it with Jesus and it didn't work.
The Sermon on the Mount
Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him
Matthew 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

Jesus said this to the common people who came to hear Him.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.
Psalm 143:2 Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no one living is righteous.

Evil simply means falling short of perfection.

 

[Dougcho]

There are several NT verses which state that
God gives faith to whomever He chooses!
So, we can look at verses which say
"anyone who believes will be saved" as ...
"anyone who has been given faith believes and will be saved".
God sees correctly that election is NOT a popular Truth,
so He has decided to keep it somewhat hidden.

 

[JLB]

There are several NT verses which state that
God gives faith to whomever He chooses!
So, we can look at verses which say
"anyone who believes will be saved" as ...
"anyone who has been given faith believes and will be saved".
God sees correctly that election is NOT a popular Truth,
so He has decided to keep it somewhat hidden.

Maybe you could list a verse or 2 that says God gives faith to who He chooses.

I would like to see what you mean by that.


Thanks JLB

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

But we are not disputing that. I accept that every single person who believes (and endures to the end) will be saved. What we are disputing is that you seem to think God is ignorant of all those people who won't believe and sends His Son to die for them in the hope that they will also believe.

God is omniscient and has infallible foreknowledge. Do you believe this?
I don't see how you can believe that and still think that God desires things He knows won't happen.

I don't think God fantasizes about things like hoping maybe His foreknowledge is wrong and maybe by some chance all men will be saved.

Biblically, the word "know" in "foreKNOWledge" is used in many Bible passages about interpersonal relationships in the OT and NT to mean more than "seeing ahead of time." Instead, it means "to love in personal relationship." In other words, since God has all-powerful plans for his humanity, he "fore-loved" his own believers before his creation of anyone and, of course, followed through with saving them through his gift of faith by his grace:
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Dougcho]

Maybe you could list a verse or 2 that says God gives faith to who He chooses.
I would like to see what you mean by that.

Acts 3:16
NKJV ------- “FAITH in Jesus’ name -- the FAITH which comes through Him …”
LB ---------- “… FAITH given to us from God …”
Acts 13:48
KJV ------------------- “… as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”
NASB ----------------- “… as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
NLT ------------------- “… all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.”
It looks like the ordaining, appointing, and choosing comes BEFORE believing.
Acts 16:14
NKJV, NASB “… the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”
NLT, LB ---- “… the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying.”
It was necessary for God to open Lydia’s heart.
Romans 9:11-33
The Gentiles are included BIG TIME in this most-famous-of-all election passage!
2 Peter 1:1
NASB --------- “To those who have received a FAITH of the same kind as ours …”
NLT ----------- “This FAITH was given to you …”
LB ------------- “… the kind (of FAITH) that Jesus Christ our God and Savior gives to us.”
Faith is given by God and received by us.
Jude 3
KJV, NKJV, NASB “… the FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints.”
NLT --------------- “… the FAITH that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people.”
Faith is entrusted to certain people and it is given to them.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

The interesting thing about religious doctrines of salvation or religious doctrines for that matter propagated by men is that they are based on a series of pillars and if one pillar is refuted the whole doctrine crumbles like a pack of cards.

Regarding Calvinism, its supporters focus or tunnel vision on the point of unconditional election. Well suppose unconditional election is true. That means that for some saved person Z in Botswana say he or she belongs to a family tree many of whom above are unsaved. That is God in saving Z had to set in motion a whole series of interactions leading to the family tree finally producing Z ever since Christ stated in Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Do you see where I am going? In talking about Z only being saved one must also acknowledge the whole interconnected set of interactions that led to Z being born along the family tree. Now my question is does God love this family tree? If HE does not HE does not love Z either. If HE does then all of them are loved saved and unsaved.

Can any of you Calvinists in this forum answer my question?

Please state your question more clearly. It's not clear to me.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

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Reconciling the existence of God and evil is a conundrum in Christian theology, and a philosophical approach rather than a theological one dominates. Turning to the Bible's grand storyline, Scott Christensen examines how sin, evil, corruption, and death fit into the broad outlines of redemptive history. He argues that God's ultimate end in creation is to magnify his glory to his image-bearers, most notably by defeating evil through the atoning work of Christ.

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Revised, adapted, and condensed for a broader audience, this companion edition to Scott Christensen’s lauded What about Evil? shows how sin, evil, corruption, and death fit into redemptive history. Exploring the storyline of Scripture and addressing practical concerns, Christensen shows that God’s ultimate end in creation is to maximize his glory before his image-bearers by defeating evil through Christ’s atoning work.

I have an answer that is biblical. The presence of sin and evil in God's originally-perfect creation is a big mystery that the Bible doesn't really reveal. Thus, we must accept the mystery. After all, God is God, and we are not.

 

[Whatever]

a big mystery that the Bible doesn't really reveal

I think it does if you are willing to put away preconceived ideas of what God should be like.

Here's a hint:
Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Earlier:
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Around 40 years later in Jericho, Rahab said to the spies:
Joshua 2:8 Before the men lay down, she came up to them on the roof 9 and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction. 11 And as soon as we heard it, our hearts melted, and there was no spirit left in any man because of you, for the LORD your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.

The Lord got what He wanted.

 

[JLB]

Acts 3:16
NKJV ------- “FAITH in Jesus’ name -- the FAITH which comes through Him …”
LB ---------- “… FAITH given to us from God …”
Acts 13:48
KJV ------------------- “… as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”
NASB ----------------- “… as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
NLT ------------------- “… all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.”
It looks like the ordaining, appointing, and choosing comes BEFORE believing.
Acts 16:14
NKJV, NASB “… the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”
NLT, LB ---- “… the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying.”
It was necessary for God to open Lydia’s heart.
Romans 9:11-33
The Gentiles are included BIG TIME in this most-famous-of-all election passage!
2 Peter 1:1
NASB --------- “To those who have received a FAITH of the same kind as ours …”
NLT ----------- “This FAITH was given to you …”
LB ------------- “… the kind (of FAITH) that Jesus Christ our God and Savior gives to us.”
Faith is given by God and received by us.
Jude 3
KJV, NKJV, NASB “… the FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints.”
NLT --------------- “… the FAITH that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people.”
Faith is entrusted to certain people and it is given to them.

I was hoping for actual scripture. not scripture references with your personal commentary.

Faith comes from God to us when we hear Him speak His word to us.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Once God speaks to a person directly or indirectly through those He sends with the Gospel, it's up to them to believe and therefore obey or not obey what they hear.

Those who hear the Gospel and receive faith from hearing the Gospel must believe and therefore obey in order for them to be saved.

Obedience is the principle or law by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result.



JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

I was hoping for actual scripture. not scripture references with your personal commentary.

Faith comes from God to us when we hear Him speak His word to us.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Once God speaks to a person directly or indirectly through those He sends with the Gospel, it's up to them to believe and therefore obey or not obey what they hear.

Those who hear the Gospel and receive faith from hearing the Gospel must believe and therefore obey in order for them to be saved.

Obedience is the principle or law by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result.



JLB

That is your personal commentary.

 

[JLB]

That is your personal commentary.

Those who hear the Gospel and receive faith from hearing the Gospel must believe and therefore obey in order for them to be saved.

 

[Whatever]

Those who hear the Gospel and receive faith from hearing the Gospel must believe and therefore obey in order for them to be saved.

Yes and faith/belief is a gift of God.

Ephesians_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

But you are going to boast that you exercised faith and belief all by yourself.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

 

[JLB]

Yes and faith/belief is a gift of God.

Ephesians_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

But you are going to boast that you exercised faith and belief all by yourself.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Faith and grace are a gift from God when He speaks His word to us.


Believe (obey) is what we must choose to do or not do.

God does not do the believing (obeying) for us.