Unconditional Election

[JLB]

We only love the Lord because He first loved us.

1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.

Yes sir.

 

[JLB]

You sure about that?

Ezekiel 36:27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to do My judgments.

Yes we need His Spirit (His grace) to do what we can not on our own.

 

[electedbyHim]

Jesus Christ is the Truth.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6

Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the truth.

His Teachings, His message of salvation, His commandments, His word, are the Truth.


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

If you abide in Calvinism then you are on your own.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9


Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Here we are again.

You call something heresy and have not a shred of evidence it is heretical.

God's election is unconditional. God's choice of certain individuals for salvation was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, but was based solely in His good and sovereign will.

 

[JLB]

You call something heresy and have not a shred of evidence it is heretical.

I made a statement concerning whosoever...

Here it is again -

Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Do you agree, that Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God... based on the scripture I gave?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hidden, I also do not believe the Scriptures teach baptism of Holy Spirit after salvation.

That is a completey different subject.

I know. And I don't think experience trumps scripture either, only I don't think experience should simply be disregarded either just because it appears to contradict it. Sometimes it can show us that what we thought was true actually wasn't cuz. As new both know, scripture can be interpreted in different ways.

At one point in my life I believed I was saved and believed in Jesus, however, my lifestyle of drukeness and drugs showed me I was self-deceived. I only knew that years later when I was really born again (regenerated). When I was regenerated (born again) that is when His Spirit illuminated to me the written word. 1 John proved to me I was really never saved.

For future reference this is another difference between us. I wasn't raised in church and my family told me nothing about the Bible, so when I first looked into Christianity it was a like a brand new thing to me. I might have quite easily gone the same way for me as it did for you if I had been raised in a Christian environment.

 

[JLB]

God's election is unconditional.

God's election for purpose is based on Him who calls.

• that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls

However we see that this involved the Israelites.

• who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Specifically, who He called to be the lineage of the Messiah

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came,

4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:4-11

 

[electedbyHim]

I made a statement concerning whosoever...

Here it is again -

Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Do you agree, that Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God... based on the scripture I gave?

I made a statement concerning whosoever...

This is not true, you have said many times Calvinism is heresy.

Post #138 which I replied to.

JLB said....If you abide in Calvinism then you are on your own.

Did you not start this thread on unconditional election, to refute it, and still have not proven it to be Biblically false?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Actually, I think I'd classify the things said in this thread as a dissension, not a heresy that leads to death, JLB.

 

[Free]

Calvinism is merely the name given to the system of biblical theology developed by John Calvin. Any insinuation that Calvinism as a whole is heresy or that one follows either Calvinism or the Bible will result in removal from this thread.

 

[JLB]

Actually, I think I'd classify the things said in this thread as a dissension, not a heresy that leads to death, JLB.

Oh, I never said anything mentioned in this thread was Heresy.

It is a general statement based on scripture, that applies to me, first and foremost.

It's why I just stick to what the scriptures say.

 

[JLB]

Calvinism is merely the name given to the system of biblical theology developed by John Calvin.

That is certainly your opinion and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe.

Each of us have a choice to believe Calvinism, or Catholicism, or whatever we choose.

I choose to believe what Jesus wrote, and inspired His apostles and prophets to write.

 

[Free]

Oh, I never said anything mentioned in this thread was Heresy.

It is a general statement based on scripture, that applies to me, first and foremost.

It's why I just stick to what the scriptures say.

I wasn't going to point anything out, but since it seems you would rather be dishonest, here it is.

Jesus Christ is the Truth.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6

Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the truth.

His Teachings, His message of salvation, His commandments, His word, are the Truth.


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

If you abide in Calvinism then you are on your own.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9


Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Notice that you begin by stating that:

"Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the truth.

His Teachings, His message of salvation, His commandments, His word, are the Truth."

Then state:

"If you abide in Calvinism then you are on your own.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9"

And finish with: "Those who teach and promote heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God."

You very strongly implied that Calvinism is heresy.

 

[Free]

That is certainly your opinion and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe.

Each of us have a choice to believe Calvinism, or Catholicism, or whatever we choose.

I choose to believe what Jesus wrote, and inspired His apostles and prophets to write.

Not only did you once imply that Calvinism is heresy, this is either incredibly naive or full of spiritual pride. You simply choose your own understanding of Scripture and believe what you want to believe. You are no different than anyone else.

 

[electedbyHim]

That is certainly your opinion and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe.

Each of us have a choice to believe Calvinism, or Catholicism, or whatever we choose.

I choose to believe what Jesus wrote, and inspired His apostles and prophets to write.

That is certainly your opinion and you are entitled to believe what you want to believe.

What Free posted about Calvinism is not an opinion, it is a fact.

 

[Arial]

I've been saved for 40 years now, though, and I can assure you. In my case I wanted something else. I had tried the Satanist worldview, and it was destroying everything good in my life. And before I ever picked up a Bible, I had EWTN the Catholic channel on on this little TV, and I suppose that made me curious. But when I got saved, it was originally to simply wanting to live by Christian morality as described in Proverbs. It was only awhile later when I found out that Christ had died for my sins and received Him as Savior.

Not everyone comes to Christ in the same way. In fact one would be hard pressed to find any two people who have arrived in exactly the same way. But I know this from Scripture, in John 3 that no one can even see or enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born again. Born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13) drawn by the Father (John 6:44). So in whatever manner they come, whatever the specifics or situation, or what anyone believes about it, the above things have occurred or are occurring.

 

[Arial]

Arial, if I may, and I rarely stay in these threads for long, so no harm no foul. But if one adopts a theology that God is getting exactly what He wants, doesn't that make for a rather ghastly character of God? I mean, I don't wish to get too graphic, but what of all the brutal and sadistic murders and slaughters that have taken place over the last 6,000 years. Think of all the suicides where people blew half their faces off and were struggling to find the gun so they could finish the job. Think of the the brutal rapes of little girls who were raped and then strangled to death as they pleaded for mercy, and then thrown away like trash.

To say that God wants those things goes beyond the theology for it never states that. Those who think that is does simply misunderstand what is being said and are likely imposing their emotional reactions onto the theology itself.

But what would your explanation be for all those things occurring without God who has the power to prevent it, not doing so?

I could go on, but it strikes me as far more monstrous to believe He wants all these things. Those are the works of the Devil, not the work of God IMO.

As I said, Reformed theology does not teach that God wants those things. He uses them to accomplish his purposes in spite of them. ANd all that evil is not the work of the devil. It is the work of evil people in a fallen world. It is what happens when we disobey the one who made us and run amuck each going whatever way pleases him. The devil is not more powerful than God and does not even have equal power.

ANd don't fret. The sufferings of this age are nothing compared to the glory that awaits us. God is fixing it. Undoing what was done to humanity and the creation itself in the fall, through Jesus Christ. Right now, he is gathering in the flock to the Shepherd.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But I know this from Scripture, in John 3 that no one can even see or enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born again. Born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13) drawn by the Father (John 6:44). So in whatever manner they come, whatever the specifics or situation, or what anyone believes about it, the above things have occurred or are occurring.

K. We are applying John 3 differently, but I understand your point.

But what would your explanation be for all those things occurring without God who has the power to prevent it, not doing so?

You have to reword this for me, sister. It's like a triple negative, and it loses me.

To say that God wants those things goes beyond the theology for it never states that. Those who think that is does simply misunderstand what is being said and are likely imposing their emotional reactions onto the theology itself.

But what would your explanation be for all those things occurring without God who has the power to prevent it, not doing so?

As I said, Reformed theology does not teach that God wants those things. He uses them to accomplish his purposes in spite of them. ANd all that evil is not the work of the devil. It is the work of evil people in a fallen world. It is what happens when we disobey the one who made us and run amuck each going whatever way pleases him. The devil is not more powerful than God and does not even have equal power.

ANd don't fret. The sufferings of this age are nothing compared to the glory that awaits us. God is fixing it. Undoing what was done to humanity and the creation itself in the fall, through Jesus Christ. Right now, he is gathering in the flock to the Shepherd.

Well I like the way you ended it, so on that much we most certainly agree. As for the rest, my argument was sort of building from premise to premise, but it's not that important. I prefer to find common ground wherever possible, and I must say that the Calvinists on this forum (Yourself, electedbyHim, Whatever, Dave...) I have found to be quite respectful and honorable. It makes discussing things more of a pleasure than a burden.

Blessings, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
- H

 

[Arial]

You have to reword this for me, sister. It's like a triple negative, and it loses me.

The word salad not to your taste? I will requote your post it was responding to so my answer will have a context.

Arial, if I may, and I rarely stay in these threads for long, so no harm no foul. But if one adopts a theology that God is getting exactly what He wants, doesn't that make for a rather ghastly character of God? I mean, I don't wish to get too graphic, but what of all the brutal and sadistic murders and slaughters that have taken place over the last 6,000 years. Think of all the suicides where people blew half their faces off and were struggling to find the gun so they could finish the job. Think of the the brutal rapes of little girls who were raped and then strangled to death as they pleaded for mercy, and then thrown away like trash.

Is it a better concept of God that he has the power to stop all those things but does not do so?

 

[Whatever]

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve

You can show this and a million other passages about people choosing or being told to choose and it still does not deal with why or even whether people can choose some things or not.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You either believe this or not. No matter how many times a natural man is told to choose the gospel, Paul says he does not receive it. Why don't he receive it? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God (Rom 8:7)

John 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

People are commanded to repent and believe the gospel.
Why won't most do it? Because they are not able.
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44)
Then why do some repent and believe?
Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Who are these?
God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Why were these chosen and not others?
So that the purpose of God according to election might stand (Romans 9:11)

 

[Whatever]

but I just don't think He would have me worshipping Satan one day and then have me worshiping Him the next.

You are thinking with your human fallible brain.
Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods.

Abraham was an adult with a family when God called him out to leave and go to a place where God would show him. I would assume that Abraham was worshiping the same false god as his father before God calls him out to leave. I found one commentary that said:
In the case of Abraham this was probably the case, till he was called to the knowledge of God, when above 70 years old.

God works in mysterious ways.