Unconditional Election

[Arial]

Well I must say, it’s refreshing to hear you insinuate that the reason a person is unsaved, is because they are unbelievers rather that unelected.

That is a false equivalency fallacy.

First of all I did not insinuate anything. I stated plainly that unbelievers are not saved. And that in no way denies my belief in election. So if I might make a suggestion. Deal with the content of the post and not simply the poster.

I was hoping at some point we could agree.

That hasn't happened on this particular subject and I will not move off of solid ground onto the sand.

 

[Arial]

Is love the only attritbute of God?

Is love all He declares Himself to be?

That is a common and serious, blinding in fact, problem rampant in the modern church. The attributes of God are isolated from one another and "love" overrides all the others. The fact is that God does not just possess all his attributes and exercises them unequally, he is his attributes and one never rules over any other. His love, iow as an example, his love is never greater than his justice, and love of necessity must hate evil. His holiness is never less than his love, his omnipotence, his Kingship, his justness, his judgement, or anything else that is him. If he did not judge and sentence sin he would not be holy and that would not be love.

Even as humans and with human love, we discipline our children when it is needed for training. If we did not, love would be absent.

 

[JLB]

First of all I did not insinuate anything. I stated plainly that unbelievers are not saved.

Ok.

So to me that correlates to:

Unbelievers are not saved.
Believers are saved.


Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Arial]

This is who He declares Himself to be -

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8

God loves and desires for the people of the world to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I suggest you not use one scripture as your proof text over and over again. Especially since entirely valid other interpretations that do not create contradiction within the Bible and within God, have been presented. In your interpretation and insistence that God is love therefore he exercised love independently of, and over and above, all his other attributes-----where does that love go towards those who do not believe and who do not have everlasting life?

I guess your "proper theology" doesn't include these scriptures.

They do include those scriptures and every other scripture as well. I let scripture interpret scripture, not my fleshly desires. I have in fact used those very scriptures to show how they are being misused to offer up an incorrect meaning.

In over 38 thousand posts, the only people that deny that God loves the people of this world, and desires all men to be saved, are Calvinist's.

They all claim this by denying the plain and simple words of scripture.

First of all Calvinist do not deny that God loves the people of this world. They deny that he loves them all with the same kind of love---covenant love. Calvinism does den that God desires all men to be saved and for this very reason; If he did, according to who he declares himself to be, the ruler over all creation and those in it, and also having the power necessary to bring about whatever he does desire----then all men would be saved.

It is a fallacy that they deny what you say they deny so that goes out the window right off the bat. They give exegesis of the scriptures within its context and the context of who God is and all his counsel, and you ignore it, not even bothering to engage with what they say. So to make the claim that they deny the plain and simple words of Scripture is a false claim. It simply was not paid attention to.

 

[JLB]

I suggest you not use one scripture as your proof text over and over again. Especially since entirely valid other interpretations that do not create contradiction within the Bible and within God, have been presented. In your interpretation and insistence that God is love therefore he exercised love independently of, and over and above, all his other attributes-----where does that love go towards those who do not believe and who do not have everlasting life?

They do include those scriptures and every other scripture as well. I let scripture interpret scripture, not my fleshly desires. I have in fact used those very scriptures to show how they are being misused to offer up an incorrect meaning.

First of all Calvinist do not deny that God loves the people of this world. They deny that he loves them all with the same kind of love---covenant love. Calvinism does den that God desires all men to be saved and for this very reason; If he did, according to who he declares himself to be, the ruler over all creation and those in it, and also having the power necessary to bring about whatever he does desire----then all men would be saved.

It is a fallacy that they deny what you say they deny so that goes out the window right off the bat. They give exegesis of the scriptures within its context and the context of who God is and all his counsel, and you ignore it, not even bothering to engage with what they say. So to make the claim that they deny the plain and simple words of Scripture is a false claim. It simply was not paid attention to.

I don't have any "proof text" scriptures.

I'm just trying to find common ground, where we can agree... on an elementary level, and possibly build from there.


Unbelievers are not saved.
Believers are saved.


Do you agree or disagree?

 

[JLB]

First of all Calvinist do not deny that God loves the people of this world.

You seem to be the first one I have run across that has stated this.

Calvinism does den that God desires all men to be saved

I have not found this to be a common mindset among Calvinist's.

If he did, according to who he declares himself to be, the ruler over all creation and those in it, and also having the power necessary to bring about whatever he does desire----then all men would be saved.

Sounds like a fallacy based on a certain mindset.

 

[JLB]

So to make the claim that they deny the plain and simple words of Scripture is a false claim. It simply was not paid attention to.

I disagree. The Calvinist's I have discussed these topics with plainly deny the truth from the scriptures... of course they would never admit it.

To me it's very simple.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

Do you believe that God desires for the world through His Son to be saved?

My answer is Yes.


I tried to use the same wording in my question that appears in the actual scripture, so it's easy to understand and find agreement in the truth that the scriptures teach.

To me, this is a straightforward way to find common ground.



JLB

 

[Whatever]

Do you believe God loves the unsaved people of this world?

Do you believe that what God desires He can accomplish?

You didn't deal with the passages I posted. You just posted "God is love" which says nothing.
You act as if "God is love" means that He is a hippie holding up a peace sign and wouldn't hurt a fly.

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.

That Psalm must be a lie. God is Love!

 

[Arial]

The Calvinist's I have discussed these topics with plainly deny the truth from the scriptures... of course they would never admit it.

What they deny is your interpretations of them as well anyone should. Your interpretations create contradictions in the word of God. And when it is shown exactly how it does so what we get is a repeated repetition of the previous repetition. As though the bible only has three or four verses in it. There is never any exegesis given back that refutes what the dissenter presented. Do you not see anything unbalanced about that?
I am still waiting for my posts that I requoted from post #44 to be addressed. And by addressed I do not mean simply saying they are wrong or repeating a repeat of the repeat of the scriptures you presented that my posts were addressing. What I mean is, absorb what was being said, point out from scriptural evidence how it is incorrect if it is, and give an expositional discourse on the wrongness of what you disagree with. Here they are again from post #44(so you will be able to quote my work and keep what we are talking about clear.)

As a courtesy, would you please address these conclusions of the interpretation of the passages given that I presented. Post #44

You have only highlighted the "all's". My point and purpose here is to identify what Paul means when he says "all men". Why is it important to do this?

Because right off the bat, if we consider that it means all men without exception, we have some glaring contradictions within the Bible, not the least of which is that God somehow is not really omnipotent. He fails to get what he desires. Equal to that monster of an idea, is that Jesus gave himself as a ransom (carefully consider what a ransom is) for all men without exception, and that lifeblood shed on the cross failed to do what it was shed for more often than it succeeded.

Thanks.

 

[Arial]

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

Do you believe that God desires for the world through His Son to be saved?

Of course the Son was sent into the world to provide a way of redemption, and when the time is right the world itself will be rescued from evil. (At which time Jesus will return in judgement. While he walked among us he was doing the work of making it possible, but not yet to judge, which is what that means.) Immediately after saying the above, he also said those who do not believe are already judged and condemned. And that passage does not say that he came so every individual without exception could be saved.

Do you agree that is possible even if that is not what you believe? Does the statement "The world is suffering earthquakes" mean every place in the world is experiencing earthquakes?

I tried to use the same wording in my question that appears in the actual scripture, so it's easy to understand and find agreement in the truth that the scriptures teach.

To me, this is a straightforward way to find common ground.

Honestly? Why would a person find common ground in something quoted from the Bible in the form of a question when only one interpretation of that passage is allowed by the one posing the question, and the other person has a different interpretation? There should be no common ground on interpretations that differ and cannot be. What matters is what God is saying, what the writer or speaker means. And the only way to get to that is to let scripture interpret scripture using the whole counsel of God on the subject; and starting with who God is by his own self revelation. And that is something I have yet to see presented in your arguments. And unless that is forthcoming you can start telling it to the wall.

 

[Arial]

You seem to be the first one I have run across that has stated this.

As Judge Judy says, "Put on your listening ears." Stop telling people what they are and aren't saying but listen to what they do say and respond accordingly. And that is a bit of sleight of hand by taking something out of its context and making it appear as something it is not. Here was my full commentary of that statement:

First of all Calvinist do not deny that God loves the people of this world. They deny that he loves them all with the same kind of love---covenant love.

I have not found this to be a common mindset among Calvinist's.

More sleight of hand by removing comments from context. Here is the context:

Calvinism does den that God desires all men to be saved and for this very reason; If he did, according to who he declares himself to be, the ruler over all creation and those in it, and also having the power necessary to bring about whatever he does desire----then all men would be saved.

Sounds like a fallacy based on a certain mindset.

It is logic no matter what a person's mindset is. So where is the fallacy?

 

[Arial]

I don't have any "proof text" scriptures.

I'm just trying to find common ground, where we can agree... on an elementary level, and possibly build from there.


Unbelievers are not saved.
Believers are saved.


Do you agree or disagree?

That is a deflection of biblical proportions.

 

[Arial]

Ok.

So to me that correlates to:

Unbelievers are not saved.
Believers are saved.


Do you agree or disagree?

In other words, you are not going to discuss anything? Those are rhetorical questions that answer themselves. What now?

 

[Whatever]

A loving God executes His wrath upon unrighteousness because of who He is.
Scripture testifies that God is righteous and just
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock,His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

Daniel 9:14 Therefore the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.

God cannot clear the guilty without executing His just wrath, lest He be unrighteous

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, long suffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

God is love (1 John 4:7–8), and one of the things He loves is righteousness
Psalm33:5 He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Since God is perfect, His love for righteousness must be perfect; consequently, He must hate “the way of the wicked”
Proverbs 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, But He loves him who follows righteousness.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

 

[electedbyHim]

That is a common and serious, blinding in fact, problem rampant in the modern church. The attributes of God are isolated from one another and "love" overrides all the others. The fact is that God does not just possess all his attributes and exercises them unequally, he is his attributes and one never rules over any other. His love, iow as an example, his love is never greater than his justice, and love of necessity must hate evil. His holiness is never less than his love, his omnipotence, his Kingship, his justness, his judgement, or anything else that is him. If he did not judge and sentence sin he would not be holy and that would not be love.

Even as humans and with human love, we discipline our children when it is needed for training. If we did not, love would be absent.

Agreed.

Many only know about the love of God and nothing else.

It is quite a shame.

 

[electedbyHim]

I disagree. The Calvinist's I have discussed these topics with plainly deny the truth from the scriptures... of course they would never admit it.

To me it's very simple.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17

Do you believe that God desires for the world through His Son to be saved?

My answer is Yes.


I tried to use the same wording in my question that appears in the actual scripture, so it's easy to understand and find agreement in the truth that the scriptures teach.

To me, this is a straightforward way to find common ground.



JLB

I have yet to see anyone in this thread deny Scriptures you posted.

You are not being very honest here.

The fact is that many have called you out for misusing scripture and also using an isolated verse to set a standard.

Thats not how it works as many have tried to show you.

 

[JLB]

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God.

That Psalm must be a lie. God is Love!

You assume much about me.


Of course the wicked will be turned into hell.

That doesn’t mean God doesn’t love them.

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:46-48


Do you believe God loves His enemies?

 

[JLB]

What they deny is your interpretations of them as well anyone should.

Ok let’s give it another try and see.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• For God so loved the world

Do you believe God loves the world?

I believe God loves the world, because Jesus said so.

I believe God loves the world and wants them to be saved because that is what Jesus plainly stated.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17


Based on these words from Jesus do you believe God loves the world and wants them to be saved?

 

[JLB]

Of course the Son was sent into the world to provide a way of redemption,

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:15-17

Contextually “world” refers to unsaved people.

Whoever believes is a reference to people; unsaved people.

 

[JLB]

As Judge Judy says, "Put on your listening ears." Stop telling people what they are and aren't saying but listen to what they do say and respond accordingly. And that is a bit of sleight of hand by taking something out of its context and making it appear as something it is not. Here was my full commentary of that statement:


More sleight of hand by removing comments from context. Here is the context:


It is logic no matter what a person's mindset is. So where is the fallacy?

The context is about God loving the word and sending His Son so that through Him the world might be saved.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:15-17

Whoever believes is what is required to be saved.

Logic has nothing to do with it.

First of all Calvinist do not deny that God loves the people of this world. They deny that he loves them all with the same kind of love---covenant love. Calvinism does den that God desires all men to be saved and for this very reason; If he did, according to who he declares himself to be, the ruler over all creation and those in it, and also having the power necessary to bring about whatever he does desire----then all men would be saved.

The fallacy is you believe you speak for all Calvinist’s.

You only speak for yourself.