Unconditional Election

[JLB]

That is a deflection of biblical proportions.

You plainly said unbelievers are not saved.

Do you disagree that unbelievers are not saved and believers are saved?

 

[JLB]

I have yet to see anyone in this thread deny Scriptures you posted.

You are not being very honest here.

The fact is that many have called you out for misusing scripture and also using an isolated verse to set a standard.

Thats not how it works as many have tried to show you.

Here is what I said -

To me it's very simple.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17

Do you believe that God desires for the world through His Son to be saved?

My answer is Yes.

• I posted a scripture.
• I asked a simple question based on the words from that scripture.
• I answered the question to show what I believe.

How is this misusing scripture?

 

[Whatever]

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:46-48

Yes, we as imperfect creatures are to treat others as we want to be treated by them (The Golden Rule.)

Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

What ungodly did Jesus die for?

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

To the Jews surrounding Him, Jesus said:
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Apparently these Jews were not sheep and Jesus said He lays down His life for the Sheep, so He did not lay down His life for them.

Here is where your "LOVE" comes in.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

Jesus so loved His sheep that He laid His life down for them. He didn't love the goats enough to lay down His life for them.

So the "world" the "kosmos" will be redeemed but with many people being lost.
Romans 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[Arial]

Whoever believes is what is required to be saved.

Logic has nothing to do with it.

You are deflecting. The logical conclusion of your interpretation is what I presented. And it tampers with scripture interpreting scripture and God's self revelation.

Since there is no effort to deal with that, I am done engaging with you on the subject.

 

[Whatever]

The context is about God loving the word and sending His Son so that through Him the world might be saved.

Yes, and that is just what God is doing by saving ONLY those who believe.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bringing many (not all) sons (children) to glory, and thus delivering the creation itself from its bondage of corruption. That is the central thesis to your passage. God saves the world by bringing many sons to glory.
He does not save the world by hoping and wishing that everybody gets saved.

 

[JLB]

You are deflecting. The logical conclusion of your interpretation is what I presented. And it tampers with scripture interpreting scripture and God's self revelation.

Since there is no effort to deal with that, I am done engaging with you on the subject.

This seems like you just want to talk in circles without ever actually discussing what the scriptures say, or ever acknowledging that you plainly stated unbelievers are not saved.

You also refuse to answer very simple basic questions about the words of the text.


Do you disagree that unbelievers are not saved and believers are saved?


If by saying unbelievers are not saved, then you must believe that those who believe are saved, logically speaking?

 

[JLB]

Yes, we as imperfect creatures are to treat others as we want to be treated by them (The Golden Rule.)

Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

What ungodly did Jesus die for?

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

To the Jews surrounding Him, Jesus said:
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Apparently these Jews were not sheep and Jesus said He lays down His life for the Sheep, so He did not lay down His life for them.

Here is where your "LOVE" comes in.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

Jesus so loved His sheep that He laid His life down for them. He didn't love the goats enough to lay down His life for them.

So the "world" the "kosmos" will be redeemed but with many people being lost.
Romans 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:15-17

Yes the condition for salvation is to believe.

Unbelievers must believe in order to be saved.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

The interesting thing about religious doctrines of salvation or religious doctrines for that matter propagated by men is that they are based on a series of pillars and if one pillar is refuted the whole doctrine crumbles like a pack of cards.

Regarding Calvinism, its supporters focus or tunnel vision on the point of unconditional election. Well suppose unconditional election is true. That means that for some saved person Z in Botswana say he or she belongs to a family tree many of whom above are unsaved. That is God in saving Z had to set in motion a whole series of interactions leading to the family tree finally producing Z ever since Christ stated in Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Do you see where I am going? In talking about Z only being saved one must also acknowledge the whole interconnected set of interactions that led to Z being born along the family tree. Now my question is does God love this family tree? If HE does not HE does not love Z either. If HE does then all of them are loved saved and unsaved.

Can any of you Calvinists in this forum answer my question?

 

[Arial]

This seems like you just want to talk in circles without ever actually discussing what the scriptures say, or ever acknowledging that you plainly stated unbelievers are not saved.

You also refuse to answer very simple basic questions about the words of the text.


Do you disagree that unbelievers are not saved and believers are saved?


If by saying unbelievers are not saved, then you must believe that those who believe are saved, logically speaking?

Think whatever you like. But you have posted yet another post that is about the poster and not any posts made by that poster. If you have read my posts, I have indicated the obvious, that unbelievers by definition are not saved if only believers are saved as the Bible repeatedly says. But that is not even the topic of the conversation we were having before deflection mode became full blown. It seems you just want to talk, period. And I am still waiting for you to address the content of a single post of mine in the exchanges---one in particular I asked for three times. That is common when what is given is so apparently true that nothing can be done but accuse the other person of doing what they are doing. Another word for that is gas lighting. You are going on ignore now.

 

[electedbyHim]

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:15-17

Yes the condition for salvation is to believe.

Unbelievers must believe in order to be saved.

They cannot believe with out being regenerated by Holy Spirit.

Oh and that belief is faith that God gives to them to believe.

Without God giving the faith, no one can believe.

 

[Arial]

They cannot believe with out being regenerated by Holy Spirit.

Oh and that belief is faith that God gives to them to believe.

Without God giving the faith, no one can believe.

If you look up the word translated "faith" in its Greek form (pistis) it shows right there that it is not something we have in us but must be given to us.

 

[Free]

I think there is also something to this:

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? (ESV)

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (ESV)

 

[Hidden In Him]

They cannot believe with out being regenerated by Holy Spirit.

Hi Elected,

This again seems runs contrary to my experience, however, just like my previous point that kinda got swept under the rug. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit almost half a year after I believed and got saved. How could I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ long before it if one has to precede the other?

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Elected, let me bring this up again too cuz I didn't really get an answer. Here were the posts and my answers that followed.

Yes. Except I would clarify. Unregenerate man (man in his natural state) cannot choose God because they don't want to. We do not go against our own will.

Greetings, and I would disagree. I came to Christ out of Satanism, and I wanted a new form of life; a new way of viewing the world. I wanted it, and before I was ever regenerated.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Wanting a new form of life is not automatically wanting God. So I need a bit more clarification.

I wanted a different form of life but didn't know exactly what it was, and then realized I wanted to follow the Lord Jesus Christ when I picked up a Bible and started reading it.

 

[Whatever]

Unbelievers must believe in order to be saved.

Absolutely! But:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. . .
John 6:45 . . . Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

It seems obvious that those who have not heard or learned from the Father do not come to Jesus.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep . . .
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

He who is of God hears God's words
He who is not of God doesn't hear God's words.
everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus
Everyone who does not hear God's words (learned from the Father) does not come to Jesus
Jesus' sheep hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:27)
If you are not of His sheep, you won't hear His voice

So yes, unbelievers must hear and learn from the Father (the Father draws them) but only sheep do this.

 

[Whatever]

I wanted a different form of life but didn't know exactly what it was, and then realized I wanted to follow the Lord Jesus Christ when I picked up a Bible and started reading it.

If you are an elect, this is exactly the way the Holy Spirit works in a person's life. He lets you go as far down as He think is necessary, then he secretly works in your heart so you know there is something missing. Then you just "accidentally" picked up God's word and was convicted by it.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

 

[Arial]

@Elected, let me bring this up again too cuz I didn't really get an answer. Here were the posts and my answers that followed.


Greetings, and I would disagree. I came to Christ out of Satanism, and I wanted a new form of life; a new way of viewing the world. I wanted it, and before I was ever regenerated.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him


I wanted a different form of life but didn't know exactly what it was, and then realized I wanted to follow the Lord Jesus Christ when I picked up a Bible and started reading it.

My "answer" would be that was God working in you leading you to Christ. A regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. It is natural to see it from the only perspective we have, our perspective. We can't see what is invisible. Many, many Christians who began that walk under the teaching of we make the choice and that is how we get saved (and I was one of them) later come to realize they made the choice because God regenerated them. It looks like it was our doing.

I had the gospel preached to me almost daily by my brother for seven years and I did not believe it. I scoffed at it. And then one day I though maybe, just maybe its true if all those prophecies came true, the rest might be true also. When I woke in the morning I knew it was true, I believed it and I was changed, from the inside out, a 180 and I know I am not capable of doing that to myself.

 

[Hidden In Him]

we have some glaring contradictions within the Bible, not the least of which is that God somehow is not really omnipotent. He fails to get what he desires.

Arial, if I may, and I rarely stay in these threads for long, so no harm no foul. But if one adopts a theology that God is getting exactly what He wants, doesn't that make for a rather ghastly character of God? I mean, I don't wish to get too graphic, but what of all the brutal and sadistic murders and slaughters that have taken place over the last 6,000 years. Think of all the suicides where people blew half their faces off and were struggling to find the gun so they could finish the job. Think of the the brutal rapes of little girls who were raped and then strangled to death as they pleaded for mercy, and then thrown away like trash.

I could go on, but it strikes me as far more monstrous to believe He wants all these things. Those are the works of the Devil, not the work of God IMO.

Blessings,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

My "answer" would be that was God working in you leading you to Christ. A regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. It is natural to see it from the only perspective we have, our perspective. We can't see what is invisible. Many, many Christians who began that walk under the teaching of we make the choice and that is how we get saved (and I was one of them) later come to realize they made the choice because God regenerated them. It looks like it was our doing.

I've been saved for 40 years now, though, and I can assure you. In my case I wanted something else. I had tried the Satanist worldview, and it was destroying everything good in my life. And before I ever picked up a Bible, I had EWTN the Catholic channel on on this little TV, and I suppose that made me curious. But when I got saved, it was originally to simply wanting to live by Christian morality as described in Proverbs. It was only awhile later when I found out that Christ had died for my sins and received Him as Savior.

 

[JLB]

Absolutely! But:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. . .
John 6:45 . . . Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John 12:32-33