Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[JLB]

What I said was baptism gave me a feeling of following after Christ with a clear conscience and the awareness of walking in newness of life, associating me with Christ death, burial, and His Resurrection. It is a conscience awareness of the Spiritual new man. When I was baptized that awareness became clear and grounded me in the assurance of God's promise in Jesus the Christ.
If you do not understand what I'am witnessing to you it is probably because you did not have the same experience as I did. But there had to be some kind of enlightenment for you, because baptism is not just a dunking in water, but a conformation and enlightenment of the new man.

I was Baptized with the Holy Spirit before I was Baptized in water, so the enlightenment for me had already taken place.


Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Coming from the Catholic Church, I'm guessing she was never water baptized as a free-willed adult believer, but only as an infant.

Hi Jethro, I was not aware she was Catholic.. I know of no infants baptized in Scripture.. There is a body of believers that broke with that belief in the early 1500's called Anabaptist. Some Baptist Claim that was the early Baptist church, but it does not fit the history of the Anabaptist. The word means to "baptize again", and are related to the "Amish" and "Mennonites".

 

[Douglas Summers]

I was Baptized with the Holy Spirit before I was Baptized in water, so the enlightenment for me had already taken place.


Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit?


JLB

Yes, all born again believers are baptized with "The Holy Spirit". It's just not all who claim to be Christians are born again. That is why there is so much schism in the visible church. (private interpretation of the Scriptures) void of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Yes, all born again believers are baptized with "The Holy Spirit".

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

Received the word of God, is a reference to being born again.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:23

As we see, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, after they had received the word [Gospel message].

It was after they had received the word [Gospel message] being born again, then after that, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, and as of yet, they had not received the Holy Spirit... for the scripture plainly says the Apostles, sent Peter and John to travel from Jerusalem to Samaria, for the purpose of laying hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit, and there was a visible manifestation of of this phenomenon, as Simon saw that through the laying on of hands, the Holy Spirit was given.

• Receive the word = Born again through the incorruptible seed...
• Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus = Water Baptism
• Laying on of hands = Receive the Holy Spirit.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And, there is only one sin that will not be forgiven.

And the person who is committing this unforgivable sin, will their life be characterized by a willingness to keep Christ's commands, or characterized by an unwillingness to keep the commands of Christ?

I'm not suggesting that not getting water baptized means that person has committed the unforgivable sin, and that's why they aren't getting baptized. I'm showing how saved people seek to fulfill the commands of Christ, not avoid them. Especially new believers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, all born again believers are baptized with "The Holy Spirit".

True in regard to being immersed in Christ in salvation itself, but not true in regard to receiving the power of the Holy Spirit in an observable gift. Most churches do not teach the baptism of power so that it's members would have the faith to seek that baptism. Like water baptism is being argued to be in this thread, those churches teach that the gifts are old things that are not for us now. IMO, we need them more than ever before!

 

[LovethroughDove]

And the person who is committing this unforgivable sin, will their life be characterized by a willingness to keep Christ's commands, or characterized by an unwillingness to keep the commands of Christ?

I'm not suggesting that not getting water baptized means that person has committed the unforgivable sin, and that's why they aren't getting baptized. I'm showing how saved people seek to fulfill the commands of Christ, not avoid them. Especially new believers.

This is apples and oranges you are talking about here. I feel you are not open to what I am saying because you are on some kind of crusade about believers not using hyper-grace (which I agree with). I know if you are a believer and have been given the Holy Spirit, you WILL walk in holiness. That is how we know the sheep from the wolves in sheep's clothing.

Now, I've been saying the same thing all along........The moment Jesus went into the water, the Holy Spirit came down upon him. John told us that he baptized with water, but One more powerful will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. "But" there is a but when he said this to us. Kinda like, "I" (John the Baptist) have to do this "until" the real baptism is coming!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, I've been saying the same thing all along........The moment Jesus went into the water, the Holy Spirit came down upon him. John told us that he baptized with water, but One more powerful will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. "But" there is a but when he said this to us. Kinda like, "I" (John the Baptist) have to do this "until" the real baptism is coming!

And you are certainly entitled to entertain that interpretation of scripture. The problem is, it does not square with the rest of scripture. Plain and simple.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I feel you are not open to what I am saying because you are on some kind of crusade about believers not using hyper-grace (which I agree with).

I'm completely open to understanding your argument. But since it has no scriptural foundation I will be against it.

In all polite honestly, you are actually the one that is not open to what we're saying. And I think it's because you are another injured soul of the Catholic church. You're operating from the nearsightedness of your wounded soul. If you did not have that baggage you could prolly see clearly to not only understand what we are saying, but accept it as well.

 

[Douglas Summers]

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

Received the word of God, is a reference to being born again.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:23

As we see, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, after they had received the word [Gospel message].

It was after they had received the word [Gospel message] being born again, then after that, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, and as of yet, they had not received the Holy Spirit... for the scripture plainly says the Apostles, sent Peter and John to travel from Jerusalem to Samaria, for the purpose of laying hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit, and there was a visible manifestation of of this phenomenon, as Simon saw that through the laying on of hands, the Holy Spirit was given.
JLB, Up and until the the calling of the first Gentile (The house of Cornelius) to be one with the body of Christ with the Jew (The mystery revealed to Paul) Ephesians Chapter 3, The Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by the Apostles and usually some time after believing. But from Cornelius and his household and all believers afterwards, the Holy Spirit has both indwelt and baptized believers at the moment of regeneration. (Acts 10: 44-48).
About receiving the word of God, it does not mean to be born again. (it means to be washed with the word) in other words, you have been given the good news of the Gospel and are clean, washed with the word (This is not regeneration) This is a chance to chose life or death after hearing the Truth (John 15:3) (2 Peter 2: 18-22). These are people who have received the word of God. Washed in the Truth, but it never had any root and they returned to their old man. Man can only hear and believe or reject. Only God regenerates (gives the Holy Ghost)

• Receive the word = Born again through the incorruptible seed...
• Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus = Water Baptism
• Laying on of hands = Receive the Holy Spirit.

JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

I'm completely open to understanding your argument. But since it has no scriptural foundation I will be against it.

In all polite honestly, you are actually the one that is not open to what we're saying. And I think it's because you are another injured soul of the Catholic church. You're operating from the nearsightedness of your wounded soul. If you did not have that baggage you could prolly see clearly to not only understand what we are saying, but accept it as well.

No, I'm not operating from woundedness. I'm operating from my love of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Douglas Summers]

True in regard to being immersed in Christ in salvation itself, but not true in regard to receiving the power of the Holy Spirit in an observable gift. Most churches do not teach the baptism of power so that it's members would have the faith to seek that baptism. Like water baptism is being argued to be in this thread, those churches teach that the gifts are old things that are not for us now. IMO, we need them more than ever before!

Yes, We are never asked to be Baptized but once of the Holy Spirit, but we are told many times to be filled with the Spirit. This is to be filled with the POWER of the spirit for SERVICE and contending for the faith.(Eph. 5: 18) It is the Power of the Spirit that works the Gifts in us that He gave us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, I'm not operating from woundedness. I'm operating from my love of the Holy Spirit.

Nah, I see something different.

 

[JLB]

JLB, Up and until the the calling of the first Gentile (The house of Cornelius) to be one with the body of Christ with the Jew (The mystery revealed to Paul) Ephesians Chapter 3, The Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by the Apostles and usually some time after believing. But from Cornelius and his household and all believers afterwards, the Holy Spirit has both indwelt and baptized believers at the moment of regeneration. (Acts 10: 44-48).

So you believe receiving the Holy Spirit is different for Jews than it is for Gentiles?

About receiving the word of God, it does not mean to be born again. (it means to be washed with the word) in other words, you have been given the good news of the Gospel and are clean, washed with the word (This is not regeneration) This is a chance to chose life or death after hearing the Truth (John 15:3) (2 Peter 2: 18-22). These are people who have received the word of God. Washed in the Truth, but it never had any root and they returned to their old man. Man can only hear and believe or reject. Only God regenerates (gives the Holy Ghost)

We are born again through the seed of the word of God, which is The Gospel Message.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:23


This is what the scripture teaches about being born again, or born of God, which is Spiritual birth.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-5


and again


Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1


We are born again by believing the Gospel message, which is the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

By receiving this incorruptible seed, which is believing the Gospel message, we are born of God, or born again, of born of the Spirit.


We, as a new wine skin, are ready to be filled with new Wine.

We who are born of God, that is to say born again, are now ready to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Being born again does not change for Gentile, but is the same for the Jew as it is for the Gentile.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


... for the Jew first, does not mean it's different for the Jew than for Gentile.


The way of Salvation, regeneration, sanctification, Baptism, healing, deliverance blessing.... is the same for the Jew as it is for the Gentile.


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:44-46


What we do know for sure is that when the Holy Spirit is poured out, whether through the laying on of hands or not, there is always evidence to see and hear:

33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

and again

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:45-46

Peter recounts the experience for the Jews -

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16

... as upon us at the beginning, which is the Holy Spirit being poured out with evidence that people can see and hear.



And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

The evidence that people can see and hear.



13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:13

Simon believed, and was born again, then he was baptized and continued with Phillip, but as of yet he had never received the Holy Spirit.


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”


...when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given,

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit always comes to those who are receiving Him, with evidence for all to see and hear.


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Nah, I see something different.

I'm sorry I opened up to you. God knows my heart, and only him.

 

[eddif]

I was convicted of sins before I was water baptised.

I was water baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
But
Only really understood John's baptism (lack of communication between all concerned).

12 years later I finally understood Jesus died for the sins I knew about previously. I accepted my previous water Baptism as ok for accepting Jesus.

Then
About 2 years later I began to understand and experience spiritual gifts (on my level of understanding and apart from any group).

Just because I experienced the above, it does not make it the way others should receive. All it did for me, was to help me understand the differing aspects of baptism.
Repentance
Salvation in Jesus Christ
Empowerment for service

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm sorry I opened up to you. God knows my heart, and only him.

That's the danger of sharing. People can see in us what we ourselves often can't see, or perhaps don't want to admit.

You got mislead, and teased, about baptism in a church that has utterly ruined and misrepresented everything in the Christian faith, and your anger and resentment from the experience has caused you to retaliate with your own equally extreme (well almost, lol) doctrine. It's crystal clear to me.

Hey, it happens. Our responsibility is to at least retaliate with the truth, if we're going to retaliate.

 

[LovethroughDove]

That's the danger of sharing. People can see in us what we ourselves often can't see, or perhaps don't want to admit.

You got mislead, and teased, about baptism in a church that has utterly ruined and misrepresented everything in the Christian faith, and your anger and resentment from the experience has caused you to retaliate with your own equally extreme (well almost, lol) doctrine. It's crystal clear to me.

Hey, it happens. Our responsibility is to at least retaliate with the truth, if we're going to retaliate.

Here's the thing. I was sharing with you the events that led me to know the truth. You have said I haven't posted scripture, which I did all through this to show the truth about the water now. When it says baptism after Jesus's baptism, it is the Holy Spirit baptism. You didn't answer me when I asked you if Jesus washes our feet with literal water. That is because you are stuck on the water as being literal water baptism. There is no scripture after Jesus's baptism that we have to do the baptism of John (water). We are to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I still love the Catholic church for aspects of it. I don't resent it, through my upbringing I found Jesus.

 

[Douglas Summers]

So you believe receiving the Holy Spirit is different for Jews than it is for Gentiles?




We are born again through the seed of the word of God, which is The Gospel Message.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:23


This is what the scripture teaches about being born again, or born of God, which is Spiritual birth.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-5


and again


Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1


We are born again by believing the Gospel message, which is the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

By receiving this incorruptible seed, which is believing the Gospel message, we are born of God, or born again, of born of the Spirit.


We, as a new wine skin, are ready to be filled with new Wine.

We who are born of God, that is to say born again, are now ready to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Being born again does not change for Gentile, but is the same for the Jew as it is for the Gentile.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


... for the Jew first, does not mean it's different for the Jew than for Gentile.


The way of Salvation, regeneration, sanctification, Baptism, healing, deliverance blessing.... is the same for the Jew as it is for the Gentile.


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:44-46


What we do know for sure is that when the Holy Spirit is poured out, whether through the laying on of hands or not, there is always evidence to see and hear:

33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

and again

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:45-46

Peter recounts the experience for the Jews -

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16

... as upon us at the beginning, which is the Holy Spirit being poured out with evidence that people can see and hear.



And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

The evidence that people can see and hear.



13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:13

Simon believed, and was born again, then he was baptized and continued with Phillip, but as of yet he had never received the Holy Spirit.


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”


...when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given,

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit always comes to those who are receiving Him, with evidence for all to see and hear.


JLB

I believe what the Scriptures show: After adding the Gentile to the body of Christ with the Jew, to make one new man out of the two.. From Cornelius on, Jew and Gentile received the Holy Spirit at regeneration. (Act 10: 44-48) The Jew was no more a Jew, The Gentile was no more a Gentile. The body of Christ became one new man.
About Simon, he had repented or converted but was never regenerated. For if he had received The Holy Spirit, he would not have been surprised at the others receiving The Holy Spirit. (Acts 8: 13-20). And this event happened before the inclusion of the Gentiles. Note* Look at what Philip was preaching (Acts 8:12). And Paul (Acts 20: 24-25) (Acts 28: 31) (Acts 19: 8)

 

[eddif]

Here's the thing. I was sharing with you the events that led me to know the truth. You have said I haven't posted scripture, which I did all through this to show the truth about the water now. When it says baptism after Jesus's baptism, it is the Holy Spirit baptism. You didn't answer me when I asked you if Jesus washes our feet with literal water. That is because you are stuck on the water as being literal water baptism. There is no scripture after Jesus's baptism that we have to do the baptism of John (water). We are to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I still love the Catholic church for aspects of it. I don't resent it, through my upbringing I found Jesus.

I wonder (if I behave) if I might look at things as you say them.

As an example:
"When it says baptism after Jesus's baptism, it is the Holy Spirit baptism. "
Matthew 4:12
Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I know it is in parenthesis
John 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

If Jesus is preaching repentance, and the kingdom is preached till Pentecost how does Holy Spirit baptism start before Pentecost.

The kingdom message being the internal rather than the external shadows.

Make me say what I intend to say. I have a picture in my head, but often I do not use enough words to paint that pictures for others to see,

eddif