Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[By Grace]

And you think getting Baptized is not of works????????????????

This is posted as a heretical view of baptism. I do not endorse it, and the source is cited at the end. My point of posting this is that whenever we get off target, and onto tangents is that it can get to some very different views about baptism, and this is one group who is VERY different from evangelical Christianity:

Using the name of Jesus in the baptismal formula expresses faith

* in the person of Christ (who he really is);

* the work of Christ (His death, burial, and resurrection for our salvation); and * the power and authority of Christ (His ability to save us by Himself).

In short, baptism in the name of Jesus signifies that we trust in Jesus alone as our Savior, and thus it expresses the essence of saving faith. Since the only one who can take away sins is Jesus-not us by our deeds, not the water, and not the preacher-we call upon Him in faith, depending on Him to do the work.

The Bible teaches that everyone should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and it reveals that every reason for baptism is specifically a reason for baptism in the name of Jesus. Thus baptism in the name of Jesus demonstrates reverence for and obedience to the Word of God over and above human tradition, convenience, or peer pressure.

In view of the scriptural significance of the name of Jesus, why should anyone refuse to be baptized in Jesus' name? Why would anyone hesitate to take on the name of the One who died for us and to identify publicly with Him? Why would anyone reject the only saving name, the name that is above every name?​

(The above material was published by the PENTECOSTAL HERALD, August 1993)

This group is one of several groups who state that baptism is only "official" if it is done in their church by their minister. Specifically because baptism in this above-referenced (but unnamed) church is done only in the name of Jesus Christ ( they are non-trinitarian) these are the "only acceptable words to state at one's baptism". Since that is the case (in their view) one's entrance into heaven is conditioned by one having the proper water baptism

In the same manner as the view above, Reba is correct when she says this:

I just asked for Scripture that says not to be baptized .. so far i have not read one...

but she is attempting to build a doctrine on a negative, meaning a silence about not being baptized, which is an error of logic.

Instead, the best apologetic for her position comes from the mouth of Jesus when in Luke 23:43 He says to the thief being executed next to him on the cross, " Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Only the most radical (and non-Christian) churches will attempt to deny that Jesus Christ told the truth there. Of course, it was impossible for him to be baptized, so as a practical matter it is obvious that Jesus did not/does not require baptism as an "entrance exam" into heaven.

Therefore it is my opinion that for anyone to superimpose their non-Bible-based and out of context Scripture- based theology is to wrest the sure salvation that we have in Jesus Christ away from us, and to place it onto a shaky, cult-like theology that creates division and distrust among the brethren is not presenting a doctrine that comes form the Bible, or from the words of Jesus Christ.

The bottom line is:

1. Baptism is ideal
2. Baptism is not an "entrance exam" into heaven
3. Baptism is not always practical
4. Jesus Christ is always merciful
5. Humans can be very mean and legalistic

 

[grams]

Because on person does not agree with another does not imply one is not well read in the Scriptures.
We are welcome to have and share different views... so lang as they fall into the realm of Christianity..

May be if I explain a little ?

I was brought up a Catholic ! And in the church I went to , back in the 40's and 50's...... times were different .....
The church did not have us use a bible. Only a prayer book and a rosary !
At about the age of 50 my husband and I got saved through a bible church. and our son.
And now reading , I can see so much difference then how we were taught back then.....
Being in the bible and have read it so many times I can now see what is being said and to whom they are talking to.
Different ages , different rules. Like reading another persons mail ! Not ours !

 

[grams]

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/BaptismAndtheNationofIsrael.htm

From our church........... Baptizing of Israel

 

[grams]

Or maybe you would like to look at other things to help you understand what I am trying to say ?
At times I say one thing and mean some thing else ! Sorry about that !

http://www.rightlydividing.org/grace.html

 

[reba]

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[reba]

Grams seems to me you accept what your pastor has to say in the same way RCC accepts the Pope..

 

[Jim Parker]

May be if I explain a little ?

I was brought up a Catholic ! And in the church I went to , back in the 40's and 50's...... times were different .....
The church did not have us use a bible. Only a prayer book and a rosary !
At about the age of 50 my husband and I got saved through a bible church. and our son.
And now reading , I can see so much difference then how we were taught back then.....
Being in the bible and have read it so many times I can now see what is being said and to whom they are talking to.
Different ages , different rules. Like reading another persons mail ! Not ours !

That is similar to my experience. I was born and baptized a Roman Catholic. Went to Sunday school. (My parents couldn't afford Catholic School.) At age 36 I "got saved" at a Full Gospel Businessman's Fellowship dinner and started attending a Pentecostal Holiness church. My wife followed 2 weeks later and we spent the next 18 years there.

We immediately started consuming the Bible. I couldn't wait to get home from work so I could read more. Then I went to seminary to learn even more and we ended up in Moscow, helping start up a Bible College for the unregistered (underground) Russian Pentecostal church.

When we got back, it was a little like returning from combat to normal civilian life and it became clear that the church we had attended and supported and loved was actually a family business disguised as a church. While the priests and nuns of the RCC we attended didn't encourage reading the Bible at all (and we didn't even own a Bible) the PH church we had attended didn't seem to want really mature Christians as mature Christians tended to want to go and preach the word and start churches and Bible Studies and other activities which threatened to redirect money away from the pastor's pocket.

We started looking for something more in line with the early church and wound up in the Orthodox branch of the Church where Bible study is encouraged and the word is read and expounded in the liturgy.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Matthew 13:29 KJV
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

eddif

Hi eddif, A few words from one Scripture do not always address or confirm a doctrine or backup a position taught by the word. It is up to the body of Christ to judge sin or false doctrine in the Church.(1 Corinthians Chapters 5 & 6) It makes clear to note those who cause divisions., to be aware of false teachers, to contend for the faith. The Church is responsible for content of it's body. The church is not to let anyone teach,a different doctrine that was once delivered to us , and not chasing after every wind of doctrine,(Eph. 4: 14) but keeping the word holy and true.
The wheat and tares has to do with those who imitate a born again on the outside, but inside are the same condemned spirit of man. The look the same, but are not. Only God knows the heart.
But people who interpret Scripture for there own self will, are to be noticed and rebuked.(1 Timothy Chapter 1) (Eph. 6: 10-17) (1 Tim. 6: 20-21). There is more about keeping correct doctrine, but Matt. 13: 29 is not part of it. We must contend for the faith that was first given, and take note of those who teach false doctrine

 

[ezra]

in all this post NOT one scripture has been given showing we do not need to be baptized .or that baptism is not avail any more. Grams can you even find a scripture saying baptism is no longer needed . all i find is thus saith your pastor .imo if you can not present scripture that plainly says what your claiming. your posting false doctrine and this thread should be closed

 

[WIP]

It just seems to me that if Jesus Christ required it of himself and commanded that His disciples preach the gospel to all nations baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then it should be done.

 

[Jim Parker]

It just seems to me that if Jesus Christ required it of himself and commanded that His disciples preach the gospel to all nations baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then it should be done.

That Jesus commanded all disciples to be baptized should be sufficient to anyone who says that Jesus is their Lord.

Otherwise: “..why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 nkjv)

iakov the fool

 

[eddif]

When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, is there any discussion as to why?

I Peter 2 :24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

As Jesus had our sins in his body, would we benefit from his being baptised? We see our healing coming from the stripes he bore in His beating. If Israel was baptised in the sea and the cloud and drank from the rock (without a ceremony?), shall we not see something happening for us as he receives John's Baptism. I think we should have some discussion.

eddif

 

[eddif]

May be if I explain a little ?

I was brought up a Catholic ! And in the church I went to , back in the 40's and 50's...... times were different .....
The church did not have us use a bible. Only a prayer book and a rosary !
At about the age of 50 my husband and I got saved through a bible church. and our son.
And now reading , I can see so much difference then how we were taught back then.....
Being in the bible and have read it so many times I can now see what is being said and to whom they are talking to.
Different ages , different rules. Like reading another persons mail ! Not ours !

I John 2:25
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
26 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Even a person receiving a true experience of the Holy Spirit has to be on the alert to false doctrine. A dependence on scripture, hidden lessons in what God created help us know Him.

I tend to agree with others that you are memorizing something man has come up with , rather than what the word and the word become flesh (Jesus and his actions / teaching).

I am really for your development. Not a clone of anyone else, but a follower of The Lord Jesus Christ. The voice of Jesus you should follow. The Law even agrees with the Kingdom message (not on a carved in stone sense, but in our heart and minds - living and active).

There are plenty of churches that could provide you with a great ceremony for receiving annointing, but it might not be the Holy Spirit you receive (a spirit yes, but not the Holy Spirit).

I am sure to be told I am in error. All of us are just one post off needing correction. We depend on God for help.

eddif

 

[grams]

Eph. 2:

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does any one understand ? " Not of works " ??????

 

[JLB]

Eph. 2:

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does any one understand ? " Not of works " ??????

Yes.

The works of the law of Moses.

Righteous Works.

Works that earn wages.

Work of Obedience.



Which one of these different works are you referring to?


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, is there any discussion as to why?

I Peter 2 :24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

As Jesus had our sins in his body, would we benefit from his being baptised? We see our healing coming from the stripes he bore in His beating. If Israel was baptised in the sea and the cloud and drank from the rock (without a ceremony?), shall we not see something happening for us as he receives John's Baptism. I think we should have some discussion.

eddif

Jesus was baptized to identify Himself as a servant to His people according to the flesh. That He was not afraid to become like His brethren to suffer the thing in the flesh. And being so like His brethren that He might be a merciful High Priest . (Heb. 2: 9-18; 5: 5-10) The same reason we are baptized into Christ death to experience the enmity of the world against the Spirit (Rom. 8: 14-17)

 

[Jim Parker]

When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, is there any discussion as to why?

I Peter 2 :24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

As Jesus had our sins in his body, would we benefit from his being baptised? We see our healing coming from the stripes he bore in His beating. If Israel was baptised in the sea and the cloud and drank from the rock (without a ceremony?), shall we not see something happening for us as he receives John's Baptism. I think we should have some discussion.

eddif

"He was born and baptized so that by His passion He could purify the water." Ignatius of Antioch c.105AD

"Christ has redeemed us by being crucified on the tree and by purifying us with water." Justin Martyr c.160 AD

When Jesus, the Word made flesh, was baptized, It was not He who was blessed but, rather, the waters in which He was baptized so that our baptism would be effective for the remission of sins in that, at baptism we are united to Him in His death and raised to new life in Him. (Ro 6:3-4)

Israel's passing through the Red Sea was a "type" or "foreshadowing" of Christian baptism. They did not receive remissions of sins from that event. Rather, they escaped physical death at the hands of Egypt's army and that is also a "foreshadowing" of the believer's escape from eternal death by being baptized into Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (RSV)

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

"He was born and baptized so that by His passion He could purify the water." Ignatius of Antioch c.105AD

"Christ has redeemed us by being crucified on the tree and by purifying us with water." Justin Martyr c.160 AD

When Jesus, the Word made flesh, was baptized, It was not He who was blessed but, rather, the waters in which He was baptized so that our baptism would be effective for the remission of sins in that, at baptism we are united to Him in His death and raised to new life in Him. (Ro 6:3-4)

Israel's passing through the Red Sea was a "type" or "foreshadowing" of Christian baptism. They did not receive remissions of sins from that event. Rather, they escaped physical death at the hands of Egypt's army and that is also a "foreshadowing" of the believer's escape from eternal death by being baptized into Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (RSV)

iakov the fool

Now I understand why you believe in Salvation by water baptism.

 

[Jim Parker]

Now I understand why you believe in Salvation by water baptism.

I always wonder, when someone speaks of salvation, "salvation from what?" From what does that person think one is saved?

When I was in the Pentecostal Holiness Church, it was taught that a person was saved from "going to hell" by believing in Jesus. Being "saved" essentially meant "having eternal life."

But that's not what Paul tells us at Ro 2:6 -10

For (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.


I understand baptism, which Jesus requires of all believers, to be the act by which we are born again according to Paul's meaning at Rom 6:3-7

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (RSV)

Jesus also said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mar 16:16a)(My emphasis by italics)

And Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:53-54 RSV)

And He told us how we can "eat His flesh and drink His blood" at Mat 26:26-28. Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. " (Also see Mark 14:22-24 and Luke 22:19-20)

I understand that if Jesus is My Lord then I am required to do as He commanded (Luke 6:46) and He commanded that I be baptized. (Mat 28:19-20) But if Jesus is not a person's Lord then the person need not be baptized.

So I understand salvation as based on what the Bible says it is based on: not only belief in the Lord, but also, obedience to the Lord.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Eph. 2:7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does any one understand ? " Not of works " ??????

OOOPS!! You missed the next verse: Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Do you think maybe we might need to walk in (do) the works that God personally prepared for each of us to do? Or can we just blow them off because we "believe"?

Why do you suppose Jesus asked, “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?"(Luke 6:46)

Jesus also said (Jhn 14:15) “If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Why would anyone who "loves Jesus" tell people not to bother doing the things Jesus said to do?

If one is saved by faith, would not that faith lead him to believe they should obey God?

This is a very curious idea that faith in Jesus doesn't include doing what He says to do. 2

Iakov the fool