What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Growth Understanding Baptism ?

grams said:
Eph. 2:

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does any one understand ? " Not of works " ??????
Click to expand...
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND this has nothing to do with Baptism once again NO BODY has ever claimed baptism saves and yes i fully understand works . works come after salvation your grasping at straws and have yet to prove your point on baptism
 
Jim Parker said:
I always wonder, when someone speaks of salvation, "salvation from what?" From what does that person think one is saved?

When I was in the Pentecostal Holiness Church, it was taught that a person was saved from "going to hell" by believing in Jesus. Being "saved" essentially meant "having eternal life."

But that's not what Paul tells us at Ro 2:6 -10

For (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.


I understand baptism, which Jesus requires of all believers, to be the act by which we are born again according to Paul's meaning at Rom 6:3-7

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (RSV)

Jesus also said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mar 16:16a)(My emphasis by italics)

And Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:53-54 RSV)

And He told us how we can "eat His flesh and drink His blood" at Mat 26:26-28. Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. " (Also see Mark 14:22-24 and Luke 22:19-20)

I understand that if Jesus is My Lord then I am required to do as He commanded (Luke 6:46) and He commanded that I be baptized. (Mat 28:19-20) But if Jesus is not a person's Lord then the person need not be baptized.

So I understand salvation as based on what the Bible says it is based on: not only belief in the Lord, but also, obedience to the Lord.

iakov the fool
:boing
Click to expand...
The Scriptures make it clear . God is going to rein judgment upon this earthen society and the disobedience of man to the point he will burn it all to hell. Then He will create what He intended in the first place. It is that wrath and judgement we are saved from. That is the purpose of Salvation. Now there is no fear of Judgment, for we are saved from His wrath and born again as son of God.
You have quote to me Justin Martyr that you believe his writings. and another book you quoted from. That does not sound like you believe God alone. You have other influences.
 
Way back on post #57 Jesus says what baptism shall take place NOW.

Acts 1:5 "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." ~ Jesus

These words are from the mouth of our Lord. This is the baptism we NEED to be baptized in.
 
LovethroughDove said:
Way back on post #57 Jesus says what baptism shall take place NOW.

Acts 1:5 "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." ~ Jesus

These words are from the mouth of our Lord. This is the baptism we NEED to be baptized in.
Click to expand...
Yes, and that is the baptism that all born again believers are baptized with at regeneration, The Holy Spirit. But water baptism is us identifying ourselves with Christ. There is a Spiritual power in water baptism giving deliverance or notice to the flesh that it is no longer our master..
 
Douglas Summers said:
Yes, and that is the baptism that all born again believers are baptized with at regeneration, The Holy Spirit. But water baptism is us identifying ourselves with Christ. There is a Spiritual power in water baptism giving deliverance or notice to the flesh that it is no longer our master..
Click to expand...

This is what people on here have been saying, but what scriptural proof is there that this is the case? The water came before the Spirit, not vice versa. Please post the scripture that says you need the water after the Spirit. And Douglas, I'm talking to everyone that has this opinion.
 
Douglas Summers said:
You have quote to me Justin Martyr that you believe his writings. and another book you quoted from. That does not sound like you believe God alone. You have other influences.
Click to expand...

Every single one of us has other influences. Our pastors, guest preachers, books we read, denominational doctrines, commentators, etc. all influence what and how we believe.( That includes you.) Even our command of the English language is an influence on what we believe.

If you think that you "believe God alone" you are deceiving yourself.

Justin Martyr was the first apologist of the Church.
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the apostle John so I think it might be of value to know what he has to say.

iakov the fool
:boing
 
Jim Parker said:
How about Jesus who said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." ? (Mar 16:16a)

iakov the fool
:boing
Click to expand...
Mark 16: 9-20 was added around the second and third centuries. It is not in the first and oldest manuscripts. The same with 1 John 5: 7. It is faith and faith alone in Jesus that regenerates us. and the cross or blood came first before the water. You can be dipped so many times that the tadpoles know your name, but without the blood, you are just wet. In Acts 10: 44-48 the Gentile received the Holy Spirit and gifts before they were water baptized.
 
Jim Parker said:
How about Jesus who said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." ? (Mar 16:16a)

iakov the fool
:boing
Click to expand...
well if your going to hold to that. then throw the blood atonement out the front door. water baptism is symbolic i dont follow apostolic teachings.the cross {his death} was payment for our sins .. the resurrection gave us eternal life
 
Not necessarily directed at the last poster..
Watch the weird line between discussion and debate ADMIN :biggrin
 
Jim Parker said:
Every single one of us has other influences. Our pastors, guest preachers, books we read, denominational doctrines, commentators, etc. all influence what and how we believe.( That includes you.) Even our command of the English language is an influence on what we believe.

If you think that you "believe God alone" you are deceiving yourself.

Justin Martyr was the first apologist of the Church.
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the apostle John so I think it might be of value to know what he has to say.

iakov the fool
:boing
Click to expand...
I and others have no influence but the Holy Spirit in us. And John was an Apostle of Christ with the command of God to teach. We have had people lead us through the Scriptures, but the Holy Spirit never let us be fooled by false teachings, or any other authority but Christ. (1 Jon. 2: 26-27) This is where the Son's abide. Everything else is strange fire. I do not write this as sarcasm. It is the Lord who teaches His own, me and others. The Scriptures are Spiritual, not carnal or philosophical. Justin Martyr may be your denominational apologist. He is not mine. I'am neither Catholic or protestant, I'am a born again believer through faith in Christ. Really!
 
Douglas Summers said:
Mark 16: 9-20 was added around the second and third centuries. It is not in the first and oldest manuscripts. The same with 1 John 5: 7.
Click to expand...


The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1Ti 3:15), included those words in your Bible. The Church, in the 4th century, determined which books would be in your Bible. Whether or not specific verses "belong" in the Bible is not open for discussion.

And no one has seen the "first" manuscripts for at least 1900 years.

If you don't want to believe what your Bible says, that's on you.

It is faith and faith alone in Jesus that regenerates us.
Click to expand...


That's not what scripture says. Rom 6:4 says, in baptism, you were buried with Christ and raised again to new life. Going from death to new life is exactly what the word "regeneration" means.

[/QUOTE] and the cross or blood came first before the water .[/QUOTE]

So what? :shrug

[QUOTE] You can be dipped so many times that the tadpoles know your name, but without the blood, you are just wet. [/QUOTE]


Cute. So what? :shrug

In Acts 10: 44-48 the Gentile received the Holy Spirit and gifts before they were water baptized.
Click to expand...

So what. :shrug

If Jesus is your lord then you do what He commands; you will be faithFUL to do His will, to obey His commands.

He commanded you to be baptized.

If you refuse, neglect, or can't be bothered to be baptized then you are not doing what Jesus commanded you to do and, therefore, He is not your Lord no matter how much faith you think or claim you have.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. (1Co 13:1-3 nkjv)

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:23 If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

If you love the Lord then you will be baptized as He commanded you to be.

If you don't love the Lord then do as you please.

iakov the fool
:boing
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB
[QUOTE="ezra, post: 1150950, member: 2988"]well if your going to hold to that. then throw the blood atonement out the front door. water baptism is symbolic i dont follow apostolic teachings.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing "symbolic" about it. Baptism is sacramental. You have thrown the apostle Paul's explanation of exactly what happens in Baptism out the door. But, as you said, " i don't follow apostolic teachings". So I can conclude that you don't follow the teachings of the apostles Matthew, John, Peter or Paul. Did you just rip all the teachings of those apostles out of your Bible?

Here's Paul's explanation of what happens in baptism. Note that in no manner does he even hint that it's symbolic.
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Rom 6:3 -7 )

The only way that can be "symbolic" is if Christ had not died and risen again. But He did die and raise again, otherwise, how could a person be "baptized into His death"?

the cross {his death} was payment for our sins .. the resurrection gave us eternal life
Click to expand...

Sin does not create a "debt" which has to be paid. The "WAGES" of sin is death, not the cost of sin. Wages are what you get paid.
Sin results in the separation of the sinner from God who is the only being who has life by nature. We have life as a gift. When we sin we separate ourselves from the only source of life.

When Christ died and rose again, He conquered death. Death can no longer hold mankind.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Co 15:51-57

But that's the apostle Paul's teaching and you said you "don't follow apostolic teachings".

iakov the fool
:boing
 
By Grace said:
I believe that there most likely some posters who believe in baptismal regeneration
Click to expand...

That's what the apostle Paul taught.

Rom 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

It's what he told Titus.

Tit 3:5 he (God) saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,


By Grace said:
most of those folk believing that are from the Oneness Pentecostal types of churches
Click to expand...

I don't know where you got the idea that the "Oneness Pentecostals" were the largest company of believers in baptismal regeneration. That was the teaching of the entire church until the 1500s when the reformers started coming up with what they thought were new and better ideas.

In fact, by denying baptismal regeneration, one agrees with the ancient Gnostic heretics.

"When we come to refute them (the gnostics) we will show in its proper place that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God. Thus they have renounced the whole faith...For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins." Irenaeus (C. 180AD)

Unfortunately, far too large a portion of the modern Protestant, Evangelical, Reformed wings of the church have almost no knowledge of what the early church universally taught. The Protestant seminary I attended (Fuller) seemed to ignore the early church, and particularly the eastern Church. The result is that "Church History" is often taught as if nothing happened between the end of Acts in the first century and Luther tacking up his 95 theses in the 16th! (Or the Azuza Street revival in 1906 for Pentecostals.) What is denied to the students by this apparently willful negligence, is an understanding of the formation of Christian doctrine which took place during the first 800 years of the church.

And so, we come to the 21st century and, with regard to baptism (as well as the Eucharist) we find a large portion of the western church casting their lot with 2nd century Gnostic, Docetic, and Neo-Platonist heresies while thinking they have "purified" Christian doctrine by refuting what was essential to the church of the apostles.

It is a sad circumstance.

iakov the fool
:boing
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top