Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

[Mungo]

Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Mary was most probably born without original sin.
I can't imagine Jesus being in the body of a person who still retains the sin nature.
The question becomes WHEN did Mary become immaculate.
I prefer to believe the CC instead of your silly claims.

Exactly and that is why the Most High overshadowed her and holy sanctified her by way of the imperishable seed which is her Immaculate Conception in Christ, not in her mother's womb. No support for that by your guys. They have nothing. So, since you come at me again and again, how about you supply some proof of their doctrines as you demand proof of mine ( that I already gave by the way), but go ahead take a whack at it!

 

[GodsGrace]

Mary was most probably born with original sin. Every person except Jesus was born with original sin.

I prefer to believe the Bible instead of your false RCC claims.

You can believe what you wish Jaybo.
But it certainly seems strange to me for God to place God His Son in the body of a woman with the sin nature
still embedded in her.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Well, one thing I can say was accomplished in this discussion, I have been able to do what no other could- Unite the Catholics and Protestants. They have all made a united front against me therefore, Christ who is Truth. See, harlotry is not an exclusive position occupied by one over another it is shared. In harlotry-belief in lies and in union with false teachers and leaders while claiming to have a vow in faith, you have all managed to be bundled up together for the fire. I did a good job. I would rather stand alone with Truth than in a group in unity for the lie. I would rather stand alone with a morsel of bread than join a banquet full of lies. I guess that means I will not be seeing you all at the wedding feast.

11 Afterward the other maidens (Virgins) came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course it's unBiblical; that is the problem.

Take a look at the concept of Marianismo. It is a stigma put on Catholic women that says they must be like Mary. If they fail to do that, abuse follows.

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Tenets of Marianismo are characterized by Latinas' beliefs and behaviors such as self-denial, maintaining their virginity for marriage, subjugation to the men in their lives, sacrificing for their children, endurance of suffering from their husbands, and putting the needs of others first.

Whoa Jaybo,
This Marianismo stuff sounds good !
It kind of sounds like what Jesus was teaching, doesn't it?

Self Denial - Doing without for the sake of someone else.
Maintaining oneself for marriage - Yeah. I seem to remember reading about adultery and fornication in the N.T.
Subjegation to Men - If a woman marries a good and smart man, she will always do good obeying him.
Sacrificing for Children - if you think you could have children WITHOUT sacrificing, please don't have any.
Endurance of Suffering from Husbands - I don't know what this means.
Putting Others First - I think this is from the N.T. too. Blessed are the humble and all that.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Mary was most probably born with original sin. Every person except Jesus was born with original sin.

I prefer to believe the Bible instead of your false RCC claims.

Wow!

You can believe what you wish Jaybo.
But it certainly seems strange to me for God to place God His Son in the body of a woman with the sin nature
still embedded in her.

Bye Catholics! Bye Protestants! The Bride is leaving you, you can just walk on. Your time is almost up and with the fall of Babylon, the Mother of all Harlot will be done, along with all the little harlots. I have showed love to you in Christ, but you are all -a loose woman. You are all on bended knee before all men-doctrines of men. I on the other hand, I'm going with the Beloved and His oil which never runs out. With it the Holy Spirit fire keeps my wick trimmed. Your anointing is of men, so your oil will run out! You can just go, I won't wait for your call for help. The door will shut. Christ is my only lover in this world. I had some good times with you all, but you are all straight up train wrecks. I gotta keep my humor!

 

[jaybo]

You can believe what you wish Jaybo.
But it certainly seems strange to me for God to place God His Son in the body of a woman with the sin nature
still embedded in her.

Well it seems strange to me that the Bible doesn't say anything about Mary being sinless. There was only one person born without a sin nature: Jesus. Mary's ancestors all had sin nature within them. It's just Catholic fantasy in my opinion, as is her "ever virgin" status.

I believe the Bible is 100% true and accurate.

 

[jaybo]

Whoa Jaybo,
This Marianismo stuff sounds good !
It kind of sounds like what Jesus was teaching, doesn't it?

Self Denial - Doing without for the sake of someone else.
Maintaining oneself for marriage - Yeah. I seem to remember reading about adultery and fornication in the N.T.
Subjegation to Men - If a woman marries a good and smart man, she will always do good obeying him.
Sacrificing for Children - if you think you could have children WITHOUT sacrificing, please don't have any.
Endurance of Suffering from Husbands - I don't know what this means.
Putting Others First - I think this is from the N.T. too. Blessed are the humble and all that.

I am in close proximity to Latinx culture and I see first hand how women are treated as a result of their men expecting them to be like Mary. You can make it a mental exercise if you want, but I see the results. Stop wondering and believe me. There is a lot of abuse because of Marianismo!

Endurance of Suffering from Husbands - I don't know what this means? Now you know.

 

[jaybo]

"They're supposed to be "pure", which of course no woman can live up to".

Lol! Now that is unbiblical.

Okay, where in the Bible does a woman actually live up to the standard of purity?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well it seems strange to me that the Bible doesn't say anything about Mary being sinless. There was only one person born without a sin nature: Jesus. Mary's ancestors all had sin nature within them. It's just Catholic fantasy in my opinion, as is her "ever virgin" status.

I believe the Bible is 100% true and accurate.

I never said Mary was sinless. I'm not sure about that.
Seems like every human being sins - and then God forgives the sin/sinner.

What I said is that Mary was not born with the sin nature/concupiscense/Original Sin.

Her ancestors certainly had this sin nature in them...
but can't God, the creator of the universe, decide to make Mary be born sinless, sans the sin nature?
Do you doubt God can do this?

 

[jaybo]

Lol! Ok there dude. If only your head games worked on me.

Jaybo said :"Finally, writing that "the problem with silly women- no street smarts, they think men are not men and can't exhibit a lack of self control. Foolish virgins" is one of the oddest things I have read on any forum. Ever."

Then you don't get out much. Life is full of surprises.

I have "been around"; I know whereof I speak. And stop with the silly "head games" nonsense.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am in close proximity to Latinx culture and I see first hand how women are treated as a result of their men expecting them to be like Mary. You can make it a mental exercise if you want, but I see the results. Stop wondering and believe me. There is a lot of abuse because of Marianismo!

Endurance of Suffering from Husbands - I don't know what this means? Now you know.

It's just an excuse Jaybo. The Marianismo I mean.
The men are just not very smart.
Women marry men like this?
Must be a very simple and/or backward culture.

But it's not a mental exercise that Jesus taught these principles.
The problem is the sinful nature of man.
The NT teaches that a man is to love his wife as he loves his very body.
I think the guys your speaking of forgot that part.

 

[jaybo]

I never said Mary was sinless. I'm not sure about that.
Seems like every human being sins - and then God forgives the sin/sinner.

What I said is that Mary was not born with the sin nature/concupiscense/Original Sin.

Her ancestors certainly had this sin nature in them...
but can't God, the creator of the universe, decide to make Mary be born sinless, sans the sin nature?
Do you doubt God can do this?

What God can do is not the subject. Rather it is what He did. There is no Biblical basis for saying that Mary was sinless.

 

[jaybo]

It's just an excuse Jaybo. The Marianismo I mean.
The men are just not very smart.
Women marry men like this?
Must be a very simple and/or backward culture.

But it's not a mental exercise that Jesus taught these principles.
The problem is the sinful nature of man.
The NT teaches that a man is to love his wife as he loves his very body.
I think the guys your speaking of forgot that part.

It isn't just an excuse, it's part of Latinx Catholic culture. Women are held to an impossibly high standard, then punished because they don't meet it. It's the counterpart to the equally wrong machismo.

 

[jaybo]

Whoa Jaybo,
This Marianismo stuff sounds good !
It kind of sounds like what Jesus was teaching, doesn't it?

Self Denial - Doing without for the sake of someone else.
Maintaining oneself for marriage - Yeah. I seem to remember reading about adultery and fornication in the N.T.
Subjegation to Men - If a woman marries a good and smart man, she will always do good obeying him.
Sacrificing for Children - if you think you could have children WITHOUT sacrificing, please don't have any.
Endurance of Suffering from Husbands - I don't know what this means.
Putting Others First - I think this is from the N.T. too. Blessed are the humble and all that.

So you think abuse is admirable?????

 

[GodsGrace]

So you think abuse is admirable?????

Yeah.
Communicating ain't easy.
'night.

 

[jaybo]

It's just an excuse Jaybo. The Marianismo I mean.
The men are just not very smart.
Women marry men like this?
Must be a very simple and/or backward culture.

But it's not a mental exercise that Jesus taught these principles.
The problem is the sinful nature of man.
The NT teaches that a man is to love his wife as he loves his very body.
I think the guys your speaking of forgot that part.

It is a very unfortunate situation. The women have little force to oppose it since it's couched in the idea that all women should be like Mary was imagined to be. They really suffer, but it is gradually changing.

 

[jaybo]

Yeah.
Communicating ain't easy.
'night.

I have no idea what your cryptic message means.

 

[GodsGrace]

What God can do is not the subject. Rather it is what He did. There is no Biblical basis for saying that Mary was sinless.

Well, let me say this.
Gabriel told Mary she was FULL OF GRACE,,,or some translations have FAVORED ONE.

The NT does state, then, that Mary is God's favored one.
There must be a reason for this.
Perhaps because she was to be the mother of the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Also, Gabriel did not say Mary HAD grace...he said she was FULL of grace.
If a person is full of something, there is no room for anything else.

A glass full of water has no room for some milk.

Eve said No to God
Mary said Yes to God
Her obedience to God was certainly from the beginning.

I have no problem accepting that Mary was conceived without original sin.

The cunning of the serpent was conquered
by the harmlessness of the dove...
Irenaeus 180AD




WIP

 

[jaybo]

Well, let me say this.
Gabriel told Mary she was FULL OF GRACE,,,or some translations have FAVORED ONE.

The NT does state, then, that Mary is God's favored one.
There must be a reason for this.
Perhaps because she was to be the mother of the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Also, Gabriel did not say Mary HAD grace...he said she was FULL of grace.
If a person is full of something, there is no room for anything else.

A glass full of water has no room for some milk.

Eve said No to God
Mary said Yes to God
Her obedience to God was certainly from the beginning.

I have no problem accepting that Mary was conceived without original sin.

The cunning of the serpent was conquered
by the harmlessness of the dove...
Irenaeus 180AD




WIP

It doesn't matter if you have a problem accepting that Mary was conceived without original sin or not. What does matter is what the Bible says. Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was conceived without original sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't matter if you have a problem accepting that Mary was conceived without original sin or not. What does matter is what the Bible says. Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was conceived without original sin?

Was Jesus human or divine?