Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

[Mungo]

Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

 

[rstrats]

Any response to Mungo's comment in post #2 with regard to Mary's question: “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?”

 

[T. E. Smith]

Any response to Mungo's comment in post #2 with regard to Mary's question: “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?”

Mungo At the time, she was not going to have sex, because she was not yet fully married (they were betrothed). Can be translated:

I do not know a man.

And at the time she said that, she indeed does not. But she later did.

Currently I can say, "I don't drink alcohol." This is because I am under 21 and do not have parental consent. But does that mean that I will never drink alcohol, ever? No. This situation can change, and will change. So also for Mary's situation: though at the time she would not have sex, the situation would change at marriage. And it did.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I skimmed through this, as I don't pay much attention to Catholic twisting of Scripture.

Since Jesus had siblings, Mary is not "ever virgin". That's what the Bible clearly says and that's what I believe.

I'm on ignore with this cat. For others reading- Mary was a physical virgin BEFORE she conceived, she was a Spiritual virgin after she gave birth because she abides in the imperishable seed. Proof of that is in the very fact, St. Paul points to such a state when saying " I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy to present you as a virgin to one husband, Christ Jesus". If people would read instead of flipping off at the keyboard, they would know that. What the apostles teach she possessed before they taught it because she is the Ark of the New and better Covenant and possessed Christ before all. Moving forward, she having been a mortal put on immortality at her Assumption at Christ's Ascension. Therefore, she is Ever Virgin. We have a before ( in such a way), we have a middle ( in such a way) and an ending that makes her still a Virgin in the intended final way. Not complicated when you can do math=Ever Virgin.

 

[jaybo]

Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

"universal acceptance"? By whom? You can post 600 arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity, but that doesn't make it the truth. Where did Jesus' siblings come from? Were they also miraculously conceived?

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him."

Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Mark 3:31, "Then Jesus’ mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him."

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd."

John 2:12, "After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there a few days."

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

All four gospels and Acts says that Jesus had brothers. That settles it, at least for me.

The main question, however, is this: why do you and other Catholics try to prove over and over that Mary never had intercourse? Is there something sinful about intercourse? Is virginity something to be glorified (thereby implying that females who aren't virgins are shamed)?

I don't think that I'm alone when I say that I'm not at all interested in your specious arguments for Mary's "perpetual virginity".

 

[God Is My Judge]

About as representative as you are. Where does my opinion come from?

• My own experience in the Catholic church before I left.
• I know many Christian brothers and sisters that are members of the Catholic church.
• My own siblings, cousins, friends, and neighbors.
• I listen to EWTN and The Catholic Channel on Sirius FM radio and hear what laypeople, priests, Cardinals, Catholic apologists, and others are saying and preaching.

So is it just my opinion? Well, I guess it is, but my opinion comes from some pretty notable sources.

Except Christ, who thinks MUCH of His Mother because she is the work of His Hands. Not nice to tell God you don't think much of His work. Hope you don't die in that state

 

[WIP]

Any response to Mungo's comment in post #2 with regard to Mary's question: “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?”

I didn't have any relations with a woman until the first time and ergo, when she was found with child, Jesus, she was a virgin. There's nothing in Scripture that I have found to indicate that she remained a virgin throughout her entire life. Scripture does show us that Jesus was born of a virgin for she was a virgin at the time of His birth.

 

[God Is My Judge]

"universal acceptance"? By whom? You can post 600 arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity, but that doesn't make it the truth. Where did Jesus' siblings come from? Were they also miraculously conceived?

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him."

Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Mark 3:31, "Then Jesus’ mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him."

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd."

John 2:12, "After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there a few days."

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

All four gospels and Acts says that Jesus had brothers. That settles it, at least for me.

The main question, however, is this: why do you and other Catholics try to prove over and over that Mary never had intercourse? Is there something sinful about intercourse? Is virginity something to be glorified (thereby implying that females who aren't virgins are shamed)?

I don't think that I'm alone when I say that I'm not at all interested in your specious arguments for Mary's "perpetual virginity".

Redundant.

 

[God Is My Judge]

"universal acceptance"? By whom? You can post 600 arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity, but that doesn't make it the truth. Where did Jesus' siblings come from? Were they also miraculously conceived?

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him."

Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Mark 3:31, "Then Jesus’ mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him."

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd."

John 2:12, "After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there a few days."

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

All four gospels and Acts says that Jesus had brothers. That settles it, at least for me.

The main question, however, is this: why do you and other Catholics try to prove over and over that Mary never had intercourse? Is there something sinful about intercourse? Is virginity something to be glorified (thereby implying that females who aren't virgins are shamed)?

I don't think that I'm alone when I say that I'm not at all interested in your specious arguments for Mary's "perpetual virginity".

I'm on ignore with this cat. For others reading- Mary was a physical virgin BEFORE she conceived, she was a Spiritual virgin after she gave birth because she abides in the imperishable seed. Proof of that is in the very fact, St. Paul points to such a state when saying " I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy to present you as a virgin to one husband, Christ Jesus". If people would read instead of flipping off at the keyboard, they would know that. What the apostles teach she possessed before they taught it because she is the Ark of the New and better Covenant and possessed Christ before all. Moving forward, she having been a mortal put on immortality at her Assumption at Christ's Ascension. Therefore, she is Ever Virgin. We have a before ( in such a way), we have a middle ( in such a way) and an ending that makes her still a Virgin in the intended final way. Not complicated when you can do math=Ever Virgin.

Added Note: Please feel free to try and prove this wrong.......... I'm all settled in.

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn't have any relations with a woman until the first time and ergo, when she was found with child, Jesus, she was a virgin. There's nothing in Scripture that I have found to indicate that she remained a virgin throughout her entire life. Scripture does show us that Jesus was born of a virgin for she was a virgin at the time of His birth.

I've been reading some ECFs and can't really come to any conclusion.

I find that it makes sense to me that Mary should remain spotless,
and it also makes sense that, as a human person, she would have the normal relationship with her husband.

Too sleepy now.
Tomorrow I'll post some of what they stated.

 

[WIP]

Except Christ, who thinks MUCH of His Mother because she is the work of His Hands. Not nice to tell God you don't think much of His work. Hope you don't die in that state

You are taking what I wrote out of context for the sake of generating an argument. Please don't do this.

 

[WIP]

I've been reading some ECFs and can't really come to any conclusion.

I find that it makes sense to me that Mary should remain spotless,
and it also makes sense that, as a human person, she would have the normal relationship with her husband.

Too sleepy now.
Tomorrow I'll post some of what they stated.

I guess I'd have to ask what you mean by "remain spotless." I don't see how having sexual relations with her husband, Joseph, after Christ was born blemishes her in any way. It would be the natural course for God did say, "Be fruitful and multiply." (Genesis 1:28)

 

[GodsGrace]

1. A vow of Virginity

The Annunciation
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favoured one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God.” Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. (Lk 1:26-38)

Let’s look at this carefully, especially the phrases I have emboldened.

1. Mary is married to Joseph. The translation of “betrothed” is poor. Jewish marriage of the time was in two stages. After the first stage they are married, but later (usually a year) the second stage occurred; the bride entered the bridegroom’s house and the marriage was consummated.

In a normal marriage, during the first stage, the bride was not just hoping or expecting the second stage but was committed to it. She was committed to sexual intercourse and would have the expectation (or at least hope) that it would be followed by a child.

2. The angel tells her she will conceive - some unspecified time in the future He does not say you have conceived but will conceive. He is pointing to the future but gives no timescale. This would normally be good news, especially a son, but would be assumed to follow on from the second stage of marriage.

3. But Mary asks a strange question. “How can this be since I have no relations with a man?” In normal circumstances this would a silly question, so this indicates that this is not a normal marriage; that she has no expectation of sexual relations with Joseph. Note that at this stage the angel has not told Mary she will conceive by the Holy Spirit not Joseph.

Her question therefore only makes sense if she intended not to consummate the marriage; if she had committed her life to the Lord as a virgin.

An analogy is with someone who does not smoke. If someone prophesied they would die of lung cancer they might say “How can this be since I do not smoke?” The implication is clearly that this condition of not smoking (and in Mary’s case her virginity) is expected to remain unchanged.

Note Mary says I have no relations with a man (present tense). But I contend she is referring to the future as well. The angel has focussed on the future and so Mary’s reply must address the future as well.

Take the example above: someone says you will die of lung cancer. You reply “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Obviously if I expect to start smoking I can expect the possibility of contracting lung cancer at some time in the future. My question of “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Only makes sense if I do not expect to start smoking in the future. The “I do not smoke” is therefore not only something for the present but looks to the future as well; it implies something about the continuance of my not smoking. So too with Mary. Her reply only makes sense if it implies she intends to continue not to have a sexual relationship.

This use of the present tense implying the future is used in other places in the New Testament.
Mt 26:18 I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.”

Blass and Debrunner in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say 'in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)

John McHugh in 'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'

Greek expert J.Gresham Machen (Protestant) wrote "This solution [of a vow of virginity] certainly removes in the fullest possible way the difficulty…. No objection to it can be raised from a linguistic point of view; there seems to be no reason why the present indicative, "I know" , could not be taken as designating a fixed principle of Mary's life that would apply to the future as well as the present.

The Protoevangelium of James (not scriptural) tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin.

I don't understand why this topic has relevance.
Do you know why?
Why is it so important that Mary remain a virgin all her life?
Does married love defile a person? It would seem so by having to believe she never had relations with her husband.

I always knew that it was indeed a dogma to be believed.
I think this is a reason why some cannot accept the Catholic faith...they openly ridicule the idea.

And I find it difficult to explain how it could be so.

I read the first 2 reasons of the six.
When we need to "go to the Greek" I get worried.
Translators knew what they were doing and I believe they did a good job.


Until means until even in Greek.
Know is the present tense, even in Greek.
etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess I'd have to ask what you mean by "remain spotless." I don't see how having sexual relations with her husband, Joseph, after Christ was born blemishes her in any way. It would be the natural course for God did say, "Be fruitful and multiply." (Genesis 1:28)

I can't discuss this too much. You know me.
I'll stick to remain spotless...
Or, it would be the same reason that self-satisfaction is sinful.
Won't elaborate on this topic...
2

 

[rstrats]

I didn't have any relations with a woman until the first time and ergo, when she was found with child, Jesus, she was a virgin. There's nothing in Scripture that I have found to indicate that she remained a virgin throughout her entire life. Scripture does show us that Jesus was born of a virgin for she was a virgin at the time of His birth.

You're missing Mungo's point.

 

[God Is My Judge]

You are taking what I wrote out of context for the sake of generating an argument. Please don't do this.

Ok explain in context what I took out of context because it was your words not mine. My disagreement with them , standing against your argument is what debate is for. So, by all means explain what " I don't give much thought of her at all" was for and in what context. I always allow for context unlike all the pretext I encounter.

 

[rstrats]

Mungo At the time, she was not going to have sex, because she was not yet fully married (they were betrothed). Can be translated: I do not know a man.

And at the time she said that, she indeed does not. But she later did.

So you're saying that she never intended on having relations in the future when she made the comment but that sometime after the birth she changed her mind?

 

[GodsGrace]

So you're saying that she never intended on having relations in the future when she made the comment but that sometime after the birth she changed her mind?

What comment did Mary make that she then changed her mind?

 

[jaybo]

Redundant.

Perhaps, but written in different places at different times by different authors, thereby reinforcing the argument.

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him."

Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Matthew 28:10, "Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee. They will see me there.”

Mark 3:31, "Then Jesus’ mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him."

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd.

John 7:3, "So Jesus’ brothers advised him, “Leave here and go to Judea so your disciples may see your miracles that you are performing.

John 7:10, "But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, then Jesus himself also went up, not openly but in secret."

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

Since Scripture says multiple times (by different authors) that Jesus had brothers, it clearly refutes the Catholic argument that Mary was a virgin throughout her life.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Perhaps, but written in different places at different times by different authors, thereby reinforcing the argument.

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him."

Matthew 13:55, "Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

Matthew 28:10, "Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee. They will see me there.”

Mark 3:31, "Then Jesus’ mother and his brothers came. Standing outside, they sent word to him, to summon him."

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd.

John 7:3, "So Jesus’ brothers advised him, “Leave here and go to Judea so your disciples may see your miracles that you are performing.

John 7:10, "But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, then Jesus himself also went up, not openly but in secret."

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

Since Scripture says multiple times (by different authors) that Jesus had brothers, it clearly refutes the Catholic argument that Mary was a virgin throughout her life.

Are you present? Didn't you thumbs up my post explaining this? Now you are reiterating something to me I am familiar with? Most people do have short term memory. Explains how they can't put 2&2 together concerning Covid-19.

 

[rstrats]

What comment did Mary make that she then changed her mind?

If Mungo is correct about Mary meaning that she wasn't intending on ever having relations when she asked how she could get pregnant because she didn't know a man, then she must have changed her mind if the brothers mentioned in Matthew were Mary's biological sons.