Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

[Mungo]

Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Could you find any ECF that believed in the above?
I can't find one. Seems as though they didn't contemplate this aspect of Mary.
The birth itself is miraculous by Catholic belief and would be rejected by everyone except the most pious.
This idea of being a perpetual virgin, causes many to turn away from believing other doctrine that is indeed biblical.
This saddens me as the Catholic faith is rich in understanding and in explaining the beauty of the Christian faith.
I urge persons to read the first 50 or so paragraphs of the CCC whenever I get a chance. (maybe more, can't check right now).

I think that any doctrine that takes hundreds of years to develop is a bad idea. For whatever reason this was done, it was incorrect to do and we in the CC are paying the price for it now.

Also, one incorrect doctrine leads to another.
The Immaculate Conception necessarily led to the Assumption.

Sorry to be ranting...

She had her sin removed when the enmity Genesis 3:15 - the Power of the Most High overshadowed her. As with the Ark and tents in the OT , dew was left upon her. She was baptized by the Power of the Most High in preparation for the Holy Spirit Conception of Christ. She was cleansed of all sin-original and otherwise. As is the reason for baptism. For it is clear John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance, for the remission of sins. Christ was born to take away the sins of the world.
Immaculate Conception and Incarnation are one in time in space not at two separate times. She had HER Immaculate Conception by way of the Imperishable Seed- The word of God. For every birth including the second birth-born again, begins with a conception.

1 Peter 1:23
23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
She was Immaculately conceived in that seed, for that seed is all men's second birth. It can only happen in believing-receiving the word of God and obeying. She did, she said YES, and abides from that moment on.

From the moment of her yes, she abides and can no longer practice sin, for she is a new creation.
How is she The Immaculate conception for us? All Christianity was born in the birth of Christ. Since she was holy sanctified first for the designated purpose of birthing Christ, she is the beginning of all called Church. She is ( in her holy sanctification) the church's Immaculate Conception. A Conception means the beginning, in her was the beginning of Christianity.

So, technically and actually she is the Immaculate Conception
1. Because she is the first to be born of the imperishable seed for us by Christ who is God her Savior.

2. The Church's Immaculate Conception -because all who are to be saved are numbered in Christ. Therefore, She is who conceived and birthed all -a nation in one day . " Under the Apple tree ( covenant of Israel) your mother travailed, it was there she gave birth to you" Song of Songs. For a nation is a kingdom. She being full of grace- God , means from her cup to all.
The convergence of the New Covenant- The Sun and the Old Covenant- The Moon, which she stood upon at the Annunciation, came together in her. This happened at her yes . She is first of the Jews to have this happen -FIRST. Not even Elizabeth was first to be born of the imperishable seed nor John the Baptist. It wasn't until Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy that she and John would receive the Holy Spirit and that was at Mary's arrival as Ark of the New Covenant . The New Covenant sheds light on the Old Covenant prophecies and teachings. The moon (old covenant) cannot be understood without that light of the sun . So, she was exalted by God from upon the moon - OC when clothed in the Sun (Overshadowed) by the Most High to receive God the Son- Sun (New Covenant) in her womb. She is blessed for hearing the Word of God and obeying.
No people, no nation or Church of God can be without this First seed- Her Immaculate Conception is in receiving the imperishable seed- Christ. Period!

 

[T. E. Smith]

So you're saying that she never intended on having relations in the future when she made the comment but that sometime after the birth she changed her mind?

Not what I'm saying. I gave the example of the statement "I don't drink." I can and have made this statement before. But I have not personally taken a vow against alcohol. I am not saying I will never drink alcohol. I am saying that due to my current situation (underage), I cannot permissibly do so. In Mary's case, she was just saying that in her present situation (unmarried) she could not have sex.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Not what I'm saying. I gave the example of the statement "I don't drink." I can and have made this statement before. But I have not personally taken a vow against alcohol. I am not saying I will never drink alcohol. I am saying that due to my current situation (underage), I cannot permissibly do so. In Mary's case, she was just saying that in her present situation (unmarried) she could not have sex.

No she wasn't, she simply asked how could she get pregnant if no man has ever (known) her.. The angel explains that a miracle would take place in her. Don't know what in the world you're talking about. Don't you have atheist doctrine to spew about instead of hurting yourself in here? State the actual response she gave. She simply said she could not get pregnant for obvious reasons. She knew she was getting married soon, what would she know of the ( how) until the angel told her by a miracle of the Most High. She wasn't contemplating the natural course of her life concerning marriage. That was elementary for one who was betrothed. Getting pregnant with no one ( knowing) you was puzzling to her. Hence the miracle - "A Virgin shall be with child".

 

[WIP]

Ok explain in context what I took out of context because it was your words not mine. My disagreement with them , standing against your argument is what debate is for. So, by all means explain what " I don't give much thought of her at all" was for and in what context. I always allow for context unlike all the pretext I encounter.

The context is in how the Catholic church gives her what I believe to be way too much reverence and glory, even to the point of lifting her up to a godly position.

 

[Mungo]

WIP
Earlier you wrote:

Do you think that, aside from her role in introducing Jesus to the world, our understanding of Mary's life is really that important? Not trying to downplay her importance but really. This is where I feel the Catholic church devotes way too much emphasis on Mary and in my personal opinion overshadows the importance of Jesus.

I responded:

I don't think the Catholic Church devotes to much emphasis with Mary.
It's Protestants on these types of forums that get obsessed with Mary.

Two days ago I started two new threads, one under The Church And The Papacy, and one under The Sacraments.
So far there has been 1 response, and that from God Is My Judge .

I can guarantee that if I started one about Mary there would be dozens of responses by now.
I think that shows that shows the truth of my comment "It's Protestants on these types of forums that get obsessed with Mary."

 

[jaybo]

WIP
Earlier you wrote:


I responded:


Two days ago I started two new threads, one under The Church And The Papacy, and one under The Sacraments.
So far there has been 1 response, and that from God Is My Judge .

I can guarantee that if I started one about Mary there would be dozens of responses by now.
I think that shows that shows the truth of my comment "It's Protestants on these types of forums that get obsessed with Mary."

You are correct -- almost. Protestants don't get obsessed with Mary, but with the false, unScriptural Catholic statements about Mary. We Protestants take what the Bible says very seriously! If the Bible -- God's word -- doesn't say what Catholics claim about Mary, e.g., her perpetual virginity, then we get upset. Sola scriptura!

 

[God Is My Judge]

The context is in how the Catholic church gives her what I believe to be way too much reverence and glory, even to the point of lifting her up to a godly position.

So, you left the Catholic church to become a reformer, where they do not give much thought of her? And you think that stance is biblical? I say you left Christianity actually. Simply embrace truth and you will be back home in Christian fullness.

" I said you are gods; and the scriptures cannot be broken". Christ stated this at the temple during the feast of the dedication, when the Jews wanted to stone Him for declaring Himself God.
Do you know what a saint is- those being in and of Christ, who is the fullness of deity. Saints are demi-lower case gods. That is why Jesus reminded the Jews of their scriptures. Now remember I didn't say it God did. I just believe it!

In Christ you are demi- lowercase gods-" and the scriptures cannot be broken". The saints are extensions of Christ and since Christ is divine, all saints exhibit His characteristics and traits. The OT shows that by ( g)ods being written in a lower case (g), in the lower case of the meaning you are demi in Christ . Under His mantle of grace you are exalted above the carnal minded. You can be approached as teacher, for prayer request and healing and other special gifts. For Christ is the fullness of deity that all saints partake in. Hence, " I said you are (g)ods, you are all sons of the Most High".

To honor one who is a saint, is to honor the craftsmanship of the God Man- Christ. So, how do you honor too much, one who is God's creation and that not go to the Creator Himself as graditude?

Your buddy Jaybo constantly gives you a thumbs up and you too give accolades to those who share in your mental block. Stop trying to block people from honoring the Elect Jews, or any true Christian saint. They honor God when honoring them. As long as they do it sincerely and not like this " These people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me"- from the heart we must honor God and His handy work.

To be exalted by God means you have been humble before Him and He alone makes worthy of honor- no one else. One who is exalted is worthy of blessed praise. " All generations shall call me blessed" and there is no biblical stipulation concerning how often or how much. Just as for sure, there is no biblical reference concerning, in regard to your " not much thought of her".

She was always with her son therefore, always on His mind. She was the first face He saw when He came to this earth , he had His backside cleaned when He soiled his diaper, she fed Him, washed Him, kissed Him all up, tickled Him, played with Him loved Him. She was by His side all the time, she is His momma. Be nice!

 

[God Is My Judge]

WIP
Earlier you wrote:


I responded:


Two days ago I started two new threads, one under The Church And The Papacy, and one under The Sacraments.
So far there has been 1 response, and that from God Is My Judge .

I can guarantee that if I started one about Mary there would be dozens of responses by now.
I think that shows that shows the truth of my comment "It's Protestants on these types of forums that get obsessed with Mary."

There is " Something about Mary" lol!

 

[Mungo]

There is " Something about Mary" lol!

??????

 

[Mungo]

You are correct -- almost. Protestants don't get obsessed with Mary, but with the false, unScriptural Catholic statements about Mary. We Protestants take what the Bible says very seriously! If the Bible -- God's word -- doesn't say what Catholics claim about Mary, e.g., her perpetual virginity, then we get upset. Sola scriptura!

The Catholic Church takes the Bible very seriously.
Sola Scriptura is an unbiblical doctrine.

 

[God Is My Judge]

The Catholic Church takes the Bible very seriously.
Sola Scriptura is an unbiblical doctrine.

It is actually Sola Scriptura guided by the Holy Spirit. That is the concept of the doctrine- Sola Scriptura. In simple English, the scriptures alone, guided by the Holy Spirit is what any saint needs to be fully equipped for any good work.

 

[Mungo]

It is actually Sola Scriptura guided by the Holy Spirit. That is the concept of the doctrine- Sola Scriptura. In simple English, the scriptures alone, guided by the Holy Spirit is what any saint needs to be fully equipped for any good work.

Where does the Bible say that?

 

[God Is My Judge]

Where does the Bible say that?

Lol! Look at you going all rogue and taking the Protestant approach. Suddenly the language of scripture eludes you too. As you would say- "where is Trinity". The point is, you as well as I, know equations of our sums is all throughout scripture. So, maybe you do have a sense of humor after all? May not be warm and fuzzy, but some sense of humor.

 

[Mungo]

Lol! Look at you going all rogue and taking the Protestant approach. Suddenly the language of scripture eludes you too. As you would say- "where is Trinity". The point is, you as well as I, know equations of our sums is all throughout scripture. So, maybe you do have a sense of humor after all? May not be warm and fuzzy, but some sense of humor.

OK, so it was just your opinion.

 

[God Is My Judge]

??????

Yeah probably being from England it went over your head. It was a play on the title of a movie called "There's something about Mary". I never seen it but know of it. I was using poetic license........

 

[God Is My Judge]

OK, so it was just your opinion.

What I find interesting with "overseers" like yourself is, no Christian spirit. There is only, slight, disrespect and pretensions of self- grandeur. Were you appointed by someone greater than Stovebolts or yourself? did God appoint you? Are you in it for love of Christ or selfish ambition and pride? Intelligent discussion and/or debate can be had well....intelligently, from a real desire to get to the bottom of things-go back to the foundation. No one else has laid that but the Jew - that foundation is Christ.

 

[jaybo]

The Catholic Church takes the Bible very seriously.
Sola Scriptura is an unbiblical doctrine.

According to you. How can sola scriptura be unBiblical?

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

By going beyond the principle of sola scriptura, you open yourself up to all kinds of false teaching. That is the main problem with the Catholic denomination. You believe whatever your clergy dreams up.

 

[Mungo]

What I find interesting with "overseers" like yourself is, no Christian spirit. There is only, slight, disrespect and pretensions of self- grandeur. Were you appointed by someone greater than Stovebolts or yourself? did God appoint you? Are you in it for love of Christ or selfish ambition and pride? Intelligent discussion and/or debate can be had well....intelligently, from a real desire to get to the bottom of things-go back to the foundation. No one else has laid that but the Jew - that foundation is Christ.

Perhaps you don't believe in Sola Scriptura. I don't.
But if you do then you can demonstrate it from the Bible, otherwise it's just your opinion.

 

[Mungo]

According to you. How can sola scriptura be unBiblical?

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

The Bible doesn't teach scripture alone.

By going beyond the principle of sola scriptura, you open yourself up to all kinds of false teaching. That is the main problem with the Catholic denomination. You believe whatever your clergy dreams up.

Untrue.

 

[jaybo]

Perhaps you don't believe in Sola Scriptura. I don't.
But if you do then you can demonstrate it from the Bible, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Of course you don't. That is obvious.

By not accepting sola scriptura, you open yourself up to whatever your priests can invent. That is what has happened! Since you have no "anchor" for the truth, you willingly accept any teaching as truth no matter how far fetched it is. As a result, there is no difference between Biblical truth and heresy.