Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[JLB]

But it did not matter, anybody that said something like that would be taken as claiming to be a Deity and that was sacrilegious to their beliefs and called for immediate execution.

Do you believe is who He said He is, I AM?

 

[JLB]

When he said, before Abraham was, I AM, he was referring to the God who never changes and who therefore isn’t a man.

Do you believe Jesus is the I AM of the Old Testament?

 

[LeviR]

Do you believe Jesus is the I AM of the Old Testament?

The one who appeared to Moses in the burning bush was the holy messenger of God of whom Moses referred to as God.
A messenger of God is not God but Moses referred to him as God because God had placed His name in the messenger.

The messenger was speaking the words of God and said he was I Am what I Am.

If Jesus is referring himself to “I AM” it would mean Jesus is a messenger of God who speaks the words of God.

 

[JLB]

The one who appeared to Moses in the burning bush was the holy messenger of God of whom Moses referred to as God.
A messenger of God is not God but Moses referred to him as God because God had placed His name in the messenger.

The messenger was speaking the words of God and said he was I Am what I Am.

If Jesus is referring himself to I Am it would mean Jesus is a messenger of God who speaks the words of God.

The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses out of the burning bush.

Scripture teaches us that the Angel of the Lord, is also referred to as the LORD, as well as God.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Exodus 3:14


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

 

[LeviR]

The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses out of the burning bush.

Scripture teaches us that the Angel of the Lord, is also referred to as the LORD, as well as God.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Exodus 3:14


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

God would put His name in the messenger so that if they obeyed what the messenger spoke they were obeying God.
In the same way, Jesus carries the name of God and speaks the Word of God, and is the Word of God, the messenger of the New Covenant and good news of the life that exists with the Father to be shared with all who believe.
Jesus is the message and the Word of life.

 

[JLB]

God would put His name in the messenger so that if they obeyed what the messenger spoke they were obeying God.
In the same way, Jesus carries the name of God and speaks the Word of God, and is the Word of God, the messenger of the New Covenant and good news of the life that exists with the Father to be shared with all who believe.
Jesus is the message and the Word of life.

I don’t really follow what your saying.

I have shown scripture where Jesus as a Man said these words…

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;

The Angel of the LORD said to Moses that I AM was His name.

The Angel of the LORD is God.
Not God the Father, but the Son.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

Either you believe the scriptures or you don’t.




JLB

 

[Free]

I disagree. The whole process is described in the scriptures …begotten, conceived, and born, not created.

You are free to disagree, but necessary being or absolute existence is one of those main things that makes God, God. In order for the Son to be God, he must necessarily have always existed, prior to creation of time and space. If there was a time when he did not exist, as your position asserts, then he can only be a contingent (created) being. There is no other option.

And, please, define "begotten."

If He pre-existed He could have just appeared on a mountain top.

I am sure Yahweh could have prophesied that way.

But, then he wouldn't have been truly human, which would completely undermine the gospel.

I have already explained the awareness in time of Divine beings. Post 154

You didn't really explain anything; you made an unsupported assertion which cannot be supported biblically. Knowledge cannot make one God, unless maybe you're Gnostic.

Show me by name Yeshua in the Old Testament scriptures that He did anything.

This is, once again, showing a lack of understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity, as well as fallaciously begging the question by presuming that the Son is only the incarnate Christ.

Is it not enough for you that three NT writers claim that Jesus was the agent of creation, which logically can only mean that he preexisted all creation?

You obvious do not know much about Gnostics.

I know enough.

But.....Yahweh....Yeshua....Holy Spirit. Get a calculator out if you cannot count.

I've already stated there are three distinct, coeternal, coequal, divine, persons. I also believe Yahweh when he says he is the only one and there will never be another. That's the point where you diverge with Scripture.

LOL So now you are using the word create.

Create an embryo? That is not how a woman conceive? But still if the scripture said the Holy Spirit created and embryo that would be fine. But then Yeshua would not be begotten of Yahweh and not the Son of God.

Please, do try and follow along. Jesus is truly human. That is not up for dispute. As such, he has a true physical body, which was created in the same way all of us are created. Whether the Holy Spirit created a sperm for Mary to conceive or somehow just miraculously caused her to conceive, the Bible doesn't say. Jesus is, however, also truly deity, being the Son, the preincarnate Word, who entered into time and emptied himself by taking on human flesh; two natures in one person. His physical body didn't just magically appear nor could it, lest he didn't fulfill some of the prophesies of the Messiah.

What is important here is that you continue to ignore several things I've posted:

1. That the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the OT, in Gen 1:2 no less, despite your continued argument that only the Father existed in the OT and the Holy Spirit, along with the Son, magically appear as Gods in the NT.

2. The several passages I referenced that show that Jesus, or rather the Son, was the agent of creation. Logically it can only mean that he wasn't created and has always existed, just as the Father has.

3. The two logical, sound arguments I gave based on 1 Cor 8:6, which show that a.) the Son can also be God and b.) that all things exist through the Son, which supports point a.

4. The passage John wrote of Isaiah having seen the glory of Jesus (the Son), when Isaiah said he saw the glory of Yahweh. Jesus supports this a short time later by saying he shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation (just one of his several claims to preexistence).

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you believe is who He said He is, I AM?

Don't undstand the question.

 

[Grailhunter]

You are free to disagree, but necessary being or absolute existence is one of those main things that makes God, God. In order for the Son to be God, he must necessarily have always existed, prior to creation of time and space. If there was a time when he did not exist, as your position asserts, then he can only be a contingent (created) being. There is no other option.

You are coming up with your own definition of a God again.

I am not biting.

 

[Grailhunter]

And, please, define "begotten."

Don’t have to….the Webster Dictionary is enough.

A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring.

I take that you did not know....

 

[Grailhunter]

But, then he wouldn't have been truly human, which would completely undermine the gospel.

That is the point conceived of God is the only way.

 

[Grailhunter]

You didn't really explain anything; you made an unsupported assertion which cannot be supported biblically. Knowledge cannot make one God, unless maybe you're Gnostic.

Right that was my explanation.

Now if you can come up with Old Testament scriptures that say Yeshua did this and Yeshua did that and Yahweh and Yeshua were talking to each other, then we can talk about it. Do you think Yeshua was an undercover God?…..Maybe He was hiding? Maybe Yahweh did not know He was there?

 

[Grailhunter]

I've already stated there are three distinct, coeternal, coequal, divine, persons. I also believe Yahweh when he says he is the only one and there will never be another. That's the point where you diverge with Scripture.

Ya you have to use non-biblical words for things that are not biblical, nor true.
That is how false beliefs deceive people. Again not biting.

 

[Grailhunter]

Please, do try and follow along. Jesus is truly human. That is not up for dispute. As such, he has a true physical body, which was created in the same way all of us are created. Whether the Holy Spirit created a sperm for Mary to conceive or somehow just miraculously caused her to conceive, the Bible doesn't say. Jesus is, however, also truly deity, being the Son, the preincarnate Word, who entered into time and emptied himself by taking on human flesh; two natures in one person. His physical body didn't just magically appear nor could it, lest he didn't fulfill some of the prophesies of the Messiah.

I wonder how they through it in there. Kind of like spit ball in a staw.

 

[Butch5]

That's correct, pending any scriptural backing of Jesus doing something before Abraham.

What do you make of Paul's statement in Philippians 2?



You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. Phil 2:6 NET

 

[Grailhunter]

1. That the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the OT, in Gen 1:2 no less, despite your continued argument that only the Father existed in the OT and the Holy Spirit, along with the Son, magically appear as Gods in the NT.

There is a diffeence between "The Holy Spirit" and Yahweh's Sprirt.

 

[Grailhunter]

2. The several passages I referenced that show that Jesus, or rather the Son, was the agent of creation. Logically it can only mean that he wasn't created and has always existed, just as the Father has.

I do not believe Yeshua is the Creator God or God Almighty.
Was He aware of it?....

 

[Grailhunter]

3. The two logical, sound arguments I gave based on 1 Cor 8:6, which show that a.) the Son can also be God and b.) that all things exist through the Son, which supports point a.

Ya I explained this and Christ explained this and I am not going to repeat myself.

 

[Grailhunter]

4. The passage John wrote of Isaiah having seen the glory of Jesus (the Son), when Isaiah said he saw the glory of Yahweh. Jesus supports this a short time later by saying he shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation (just one of his several claims to preexistence).

You might give the passage you want to talk about.

 

[Butch5]

That's correct, pending any scriptural backing of Jesus doing something before Abraham.

Abraham spoke with Him.



but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? KJV