Understanding the Incarnation

[Dougcho]

Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding
of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.

You will see below … In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity
were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven
to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

Christ (English) = Cristos (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew)

How did the Holy Spirit perform this miraculous “Immaculate Conception”?
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb

God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)
Jesus was called “the Son of God” because His “Father” was God the Holy Spirit!
And Luke quoted Isaiah as saying: Jesus would be “God with us” …

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus
… So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature?
Years ago, a British lady doctor told me (via email)
that every human inherits the DNA of BOTH parents.
So, unless the Holy Spirit over-rode this (which is a possibility),
the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb inherited her DNA.

Does this mean that Jesus was “fully man”?
“Therefore, it was necessary for Him to be made in every respect like us,
His brothers and sisters, so that He could be our merciful and faithful
High Priest before God.” (Hebrews 2:17)

So, Jesus was “fully man” … But, how then could He be “fully God”?

God the Word’s role in the “creation” of Jesus

“… the Word was God … And the Word became human (Jesus Christ)
and made His home among us.” (John 1:1, 1:14)

So, Jesus was “fully God” … But, wouldn’t this over-ride His sin nature?

Your comments on all of this would be most interesting!

And just thought I’d ask:
When did God the Word become a human being (Jesus Christ)
… while Jesus was in the womb, or after He was born?

 

[Who Me]

this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

John1: 1,In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These two statements are contradictory , Jesus cannot be part of the trinity prior to creation and also created in Mary's womb.

Basic fact Jesus is a eternal part of the God head.
But as Phillpians 2:6 says, who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death –
even death on a cross!.

Jesus became a man, yes his human form was a special a t, we need to be award that there are false views that say Jesus was not God, that he was created, that he was merely a man and God made him his son etc etc.

Wesley put it best:-
Our God contracted to a span, I comprehensible made man.

 

[Dougcho]

I thought I made it clear ...
In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity
were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.
... BEFORE the Incarnation, the Immaculate Conception, etc.

 

[Free]

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven
to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

Just a correction: many churches teach that the Word, the Son of God, came down from heaven and was incarnate in the person of Jesus. That is, Jesus was the Son of God--also known as the Word--in human flesh. It is not correct to equate "Son of God" with "Jesus Christ," as the Son existed for all eternity past with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dougcho]

many churches teach that the Word, the Son of God, came down from heaven and was incarnate in the person of Jesus. That is, Jesus was the Son of God--also known as the Word--in human flesh. It is not correct to equate "Son of God" with "Jesus Christ," as the Son existed for all eternity past with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I would like to know where the word (no caps ... caps indicates Jesus the Word) says:
--- the Son of God was in heaven with the Father before the Incarnation
--- Jesus was in heaven before the Incarnation

IMO, Jesus was called "the Son of God" (after the Incarnation)
ONLY because God the Holy Spirit played the role of Jesus' father.
Or, shall we just say God the Holy Spirit was Jesus' "father"?

 

[for_his_glory]

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Free]

I would like to know where the word (no caps ... caps indicates Jesus the Word) says:
--- the Son of God was in heaven with the Father before the Incarnation

I would like to know where Jesus says he is the Word. Did he ever mention that to anyone, particularly when mentioning his preexistence?

Jesus, who referred to himself as the Son of God, told his listeners several times that he had come from heaven and both implicitly and explicitly claimed equality with the Father, all of which implies eternal preexistence. He also said that the Father loved him and that he shared in the Father's glory prior to creation, both of which imply eternal preexistence. But not once does he say he preexisted as the Word or ever refer to himself as the Word. So, if he wasn't the Son of God prior to the incarnation, he certainly mislead his listeners to believe that he was.

Why do you think that only John refers to the pre-incarnate Christ as the Word? Why do the rest of the NT writers simply refer to Jesus as the Son when referring to his existence prior to the incarnation, ? Yes, they also refer to him as Jesus Christ, but since Jesus is the name given to the God-man, I would argue that they're implicitly referring to his Sonship.

Perhaps the strongest support for eternal Sonship is found in the incarnation itself as it relates to the Trinity. Without the eternal relationship of the Father and the Son, we have no idea what sort of relationship existed between them. Indeed, the Father couldn't not have been the Father prior to the incarnation. That then leads to ambiguity and lack of force for John 3:16:

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

That speaks of the infinite cost of our sin and the lengths to which the Father was willing to go because he loved us so much--"he gave his only Son." Fathers, and indeed mothers, would very much understand the force of the Father giving his only Son. But, if the Son only became the Son at the incarnation, then that gets largely lost.

When it comes to the Trinity, it's interesting that you state "God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit," but there is no Son. How can there be "God the Father" if there is no God the Son? It would mean that God the Father became the Father after the incarnation, so we don't know who he was prior, other than the First Person of the Trinity. That leaves us with the First Person of the Trinity, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. Seems rather odd, yes? It would also mean that the title "Son of God" refers to Jesus's humanity or at least create ambiguity as to whether it refers to his deity or his humanity.

--- Jesus was in heaven before the Incarnation

I actually argued against that point.

IMO, Jesus was called "the Son of God" (after the Incarnation)

He was, but that doesn't preclude him from also being the Son prior to the incarnation.

ONLY because God the Holy Spirit played the role of Jesus' father.
Or, shall we just say God the Holy Spirit was Jesus' "father"?

No. The Father is the Father. The Holy Spirit cannot be said to have "played the role of Jesus' father" without implying some sort of sexual relations with Mary.

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Do you believe that the Word was Jesus (in heaven) before the Incarnation?

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you believe that the Word was Jesus (in heaven) before the Incarnation?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.(read John 1:1-18).

 

[Dougcho]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.(read John 1:1-18).

The reason I asked this is because the Moderator (Rightly Dividing)
in Theology Online ... said The Word always was Jesus!
And he called me some terrible names for espousing my beliefs.
So, of course, I quoted his version of John 1:14 ...
"... and the Word (Jesus) became flesh-human-Jesus ..."
And he hated me even more after this.

 

[for_his_glory]

The reason I asked this is because the Moderator (Rightly Dividing)
in Theology Online ... said The Word always was Jesus!
And he called me some terrible names for espousing my beliefs.
So, of course, I quoted his version of John 1:14 ...
"... and the Word (Jesus) became flesh-human-Jesus ..."
And he hated me even more after this.

You might want to take that to Talk With the Staff forum as CF does not put up with things like this. Please give them the Forum, title and the post number so they can check into your complaint.

 

[Dougcho]

You might want to take that to Talk With the Staff forum as CF does not put up with things like this. Please give them the Forum, title and the post number so they can check into your complaint.

I'm not asking them to check into my complaint.
I'm just testifying to an example of the shocking behavior
of someone who hates my beliefs re: the Incarnation.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not asking them to check into my complaint.
I'm just testifying to an example of the shocking behavior
of someone who hates my beliefs re: the Incarnation.

I usually just ignore such behavior, unless it is profound and needs reporting. We try to keep CF as pleasant as possible, especially in disagreements.

 

[Gabrielle]

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven
to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

The bible teaches us that: "No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." John 3:13.

Philippians 2:6-8 AMP who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. 8 After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[Free]

You might want to take that to Talk With the Staff forum as CF does not put up with things like this. Please give them the Forum, title and the post number so they can check into your complaint.

Unless I am mistaken, he is referring to the Theology Online forums, not CF.

 

[for_his_glory]

Unless I am mistaken, he is referring to the Theology Online forums, not CF.

Thank you. Since I have no clue where his comment came from I was only assuming it was from one of the forums here in CF.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding
of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.

You will see below … In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity
were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven
to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was
created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

Christ (English) = Cristos (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew)

How did the Holy Spirit perform this miraculous “Immaculate Conception”?
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb

God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)
Jesus was called “the Son of God” because His “Father” was God the Holy Spirit!
And Luke quoted Isaiah as saying: Jesus would be “God with us” …

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus
… So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying:
‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature?
Years ago, a British lady doctor told me (via email)
that every human inherits the DNA of BOTH parents.
So, unless the Holy Spirit over-rode this (which is a possibility),
the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb inherited her DNA.

Does this mean that Jesus was “fully man”?
“Therefore, it was necessary for Him to be made in every respect like us,
His brothers and sisters, so that He could be our merciful and faithful
High Priest before God.” (Hebrews 2:17)

So, Jesus was “fully man” … But, how then could He be “fully God”?

God the Word’s role in the “creation” of Jesus

“… the Word was God … And the Word became human (Jesus Christ)
and made His home among us.” (John 1:1, 1:14)

So, Jesus was “fully God” … But, wouldn’t this over-ride His sin nature?

Your comments on all of this would be most interesting!

And just thought I’d ask:
When did God the Word become a human being (Jesus Christ)
… while Jesus was in the womb, or after He was born?

You say that Jesus didn't come down from heaven. However, in John 6, he claims more than once that something like the manna in the desert, he came down from heaven:

Jhn_6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Jhn_6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Jhn_6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Jhn_6:42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
Jhn_6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Jhn_6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Jhn_6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

With his seven "I am" metaphors, he clearly claims to be the God revealed to Moses in the burning bush, who said his name is "I am that I am." For example, he claims to be David's good Shepherd, the LORD. He is claiming to be one of the three Persons of the Trinity, fully God, who joined the human race to be fully human also.

 

[Free]

You say that Jesus didn't come down from heaven. However, in John 6, he claims more than once that something like the manna in the desert, he came down from heaven:

Jhn_6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Jhn_6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Jhn_6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Jhn_6:42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
Jhn_6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Jhn_6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Jhn_6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

With his seven "I am" metaphors, he clearly claims to be the God revealed to Moses in the burning bush, who said his name is "I am that I am." For example, he claims to be David's good Shepherd, the LORD. He is claiming to be one of the three Persons of the Trinity, fully God, who joined the human race to be fully human also.

There is something to be said for Jesus being the name of God incarnate, who John says was known both as the Word and the Son of God. That is, Jesus, the God-man, came to be, but prior to that he was just God the Son.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

There is something to be said for Jesus being the name of God incarnate, who John says was known both as the Word and the Son of God. That is, Jesus, the God-man, came to be, but prior to that he was just God the Son.

That's true, he was completely God before he took on a full human nature as well.

 

[Dougcho]

The bible teaches us that: "No one has ascended into heaven except
the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." John 3:13.

IMO ... this refers to the Word,
who was a Member of the Trinity before the Incarnation.
Jesus, the Son of God, and the Son of Man (as He called Himself),
who was fully Man and fully God ...
could NOT have come down from heaven UNTIL:
He was born of the virgin Mary,
and after 33 years ascended up into heaven.
Then, He could come down from heaven!
Why don't the pastors teach truths such as this?