Understanding The Law Of Moses - With The Help Of The Prophets And The Apostles

[GodsGrace]

So Isaiah wrote of Jesus.
And the one sent was a disciple of Christ not a Jew under the Law. Jesus was spoke of in Deu. The new covenant is what God provided to us and it replaced all of the old covenant not in part.

The New Covenant did not replace all of the Old Covenant, if by that you mean the Mosaic Covenant which had Laws that were to be followed.

The Moral Law was not replaced, and will never be replaced.

Do you believe the Commandments are no longer in effect?
(the 10 commandments).

 

[eddif]

The New Covenant did not replace all of the Old Covenant, if by that you mean the Mosaic Covenant which had Laws that were to be followed.

The Moral Law was not replaced, and will never be replaced.

Do you believe the Commandments are no longer in effect?
(the 10 commandments).

Boy oh boy. Or maybe sons and daughters will prophecy.

Re placed. Now that may be a concept that needs discussion.

The ultimate truth that underlies the surface physical of the OT law has been moved (re-placed in open view in the NT.

The curtain in the temple was torn.. what was hidden by the veil is now in more plain view. The trick is we still see the items of the law, but the eyes of our understanding are open to what we are actually looking at.

That ought to get a reply.

Replace vs re-place comments are welcome at this point.

Hopefully the law is placed in our new heart of Flesh.
And
In our new mind of Christ.

The law says the same thing in many instances, but it is a little complex.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Thekjv]

The New Covenant did not replace all of the Old Covenant, if by that you mean the Mosaic Covenant which had Laws that were to be followed.

The Moral Law was not replaced, and will never be replaced.

Do you believe the Commandments are no longer in effect?
(the 10 commandments).

I believe Eph 2:
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Gal 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Faith in Jesus Christ is what will save a person;not any part or all the law will save.
And for following the moral laws only; one is not allowed to pick and choose parts of the law
Gal 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The above verse 10 says one must follow all law not choose the 10 commandments or moral laws to follow.

God writes the laws he wants one to follow on their heart so they have no need to look back at the law. Also the 603 plus 10 commandments are 613 laws of old conenant. One can not pull 10 laws out and say only follow them. the old covenant was given only to Israel. Gentiles were not included until after the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
If one has Faith in Jesus they follow what Jesus and the Apostles taught which has many of the commandments in their teaching. Not oncw did Jesus give all 10 commandments as answer to "what are the commandments?" and He did say If one follows the two great commandments then the ten are covered.

 

[light breeze]

Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

If Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, does that mean He has already fulfilled it?
In turn, we should be free from the law, right?

Romans 7;6​

"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Galatians 5;1​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."

 

[GodsGrace]

Boy oh boy. Or maybe sons and daughters will prophecy.

Re placed. Now that may be a concept that needs discussion.

Re placed.
OK
If you mean PLACED AGAIN.

The 10 commandments have been RE PLACED in our heart of flesh, as is stated in
Ezekiel 36:25-27
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

The ultimate truth that underlies the surface physical of the OT law has been moved (re-placed in open view in the NT.

I think we agree.

The curtain in the temple was torn.. what was hidden by the veil is now in more plain view. The trick is we still see the items of the law, but the eyes of our understanding are open to what we are actually looking at.

The Curtain in the temple was torn from top to bottom because BEFORE only the High Priest could enter into the Holy of Holies.

AFTER the death of Jesus the way was open for everyone to enter into the Holy of Holies.
We all have access to God in the most holy way....not only the High Priest.

That ought to get a reply.

Replace vs re-place comments are welcome at this point.

Hopefully the law is placed in our new heart of Flesh.
And
In our new mind of Christ.

The law says the same thing in many instances, but it is a little complex.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Not complex at all.
All we need to know is that the Moral Law will never be replaced....
But is certainly re placed.

 

[Rookie]

Not sure I understand the question either, Eddif.

Is this to ask which parts have been fulfilled and which parts haven't? You'd have to start by asking what exactly did Jesus mean there by "fulfill." He could have simply meant "obey," or He could have meant "complete."

But in general, the parts of the law no longer binding upon Christians are the ceremonial and cleanness laws. The moral laws of Moses are still binding upon all who believe in the Old Testament God. Not that they are saved by keeping the law to perfection, but then the Jews weren't either, so I don't really understand how that question even applies. But the moral law is still binding, whereas the ceremonial and cleanness laws no longer are.

God bless,
Hidden

Long time no see Hidden In Him, I see your label changed from 2023 Supporter to Staff Admin.

I got asked how do Biblically differentiate these laws, like the cleanliness, ceremonial being obsolete, and the moral laws being applied, since there is Scripture that verbatim has these sections, (this person was trying to say that pork was sinful and thus I'm not Christian or I'm in rebellion), so how do you justify biblically?

Also hi, wondering!

 

[eddif]

Re placed.
OK
If you mean PLACED AGAIN.

The 10 commandments have been RE PLACED in our heart of flesh, as is stated in
Ezekiel 36:25-27
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.


I think we agree.



The Curtain in the temple was torn from top to bottom because BEFORE only the High Priest could enter into the Holy of Holies.

AFTER the death of Jesus the way was open for everyone to enter into the Holy of Holies.
We all have access to God in the most holy way....not only the High Priest.



Not complex at all.
All we need to know is that the Moral Law will never be replaced....
But is certainly re placed.

I hear this moral law presented all the time. I will try to be very liberal. Show me the scriptures.

For instance I read and quote (without the law there is no knowledge of sin) but I get man knows about evil without the Law.

So so every one can get a grip on moral law please quote. This is to help in the discussion.

I never said placed again.
For instance:
Pentecost is the first time for some things to take place a new place.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hidden In Him]

Long time no see Hidden In Him, I see your label changed from 2023 Supporter to Staff Admin.

I got asked how do Biblically differentiate these laws, like the cleanliness, ceremonial being obsolete, and the moral laws being applied, since there is Scripture that verbatim has these sections, (this person was trying to say that pork was sinful and thus I'm not Christian or I'm in rebellion), so how do you justify biblically?

Also hi, wondering!

Hello there, stranger!

It's based on New Testament revelation, such as what was given to Peter when he received a vision of the curtain being lowered to the earth with all sorts of food on it that was unclean to eat according to Jewish law (Acts 10:9-16). The NT church interpreted that to mean that the uncleanness laws no longer applied to New Testament believers, but were intended by God to serve as spiritual "foreshadowings of coming things" (see Colossians 2:17), or in other words they were instituted by God to symbolically foreshadow the true godly lifestyle of "touch not the (spiritually) unclean thing, and He will receive you," by not having any contact with unclean spirits. The Pharisees were good at keeping the unclean food laws literally (i.e physically), but were allowing unclean spirits in in the spiritual sense, so they were not keeping the truer, higher law of God that He intended for His own.

As for ceremonial law, that all kinda went up in smoke when the temple was destroyed, which they also knew was coming as per Jesus' prophecies in Mathew 24, so what remained for Christians was the keeping of the higher spiritual laws. The unclean and ceremonial laws were becoming obsolete.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe Eph 2:
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Gal 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Faith in Jesus Christ is what will save a person;not any part or all the law will save.

No one on this Forum, that I know of, believes that the Law will save anyone.
Who is saved, is saved by faith in God.

The question becomes, what about after we're saved....
Are we required to adhere to the 10 commandments?
Or is it OK to steal, bear false witness, take the name of God in vain, etc.

And for following the moral laws only; one is not allowed to pick and choose parts of the law
Gal 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The above verse 10 says one must follow all law not choose the 10 commandments or moral laws to follow.

Well, do you know what The Law means?
We are no longer under the Law.
We don't have our children killed by our neighbors because they have disobeyed us.
We don't repay in kind to someone that harms us. An eye for an eye.
I think it's OK to boil our meat in milk for some recipies.
I don't have to return my neighbor's cloak before sundown.

There was the Ceremonial Law,
The Civil Law,
and the Moral Law.

To be perfectly clear in that we understand what the law is,
you'll have to tell me that it's OK to take the name of God in vain,
or that it's OK to desire our neighbor's goods,
or that it's just fine to dishonor our parents.

If you agree that the above are OK, then you can state that we are not under ANY Law.
If you believe we must keep the 10 commandments, then you must agree that we are under the MORAL LAW.

Which is it?

God writes the laws he wants one to follow on their heart so they have no need to look back at the law. Also the 603 plus 10 commandments are 613 laws of old conenant. One can not pull 10 laws out and say only follow them. the old covenant was given only to Israel. Gentiles were not included until after the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

Of course we can pull The Commandments out.

Matthew 5:19-20
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
It sounds to me that our being right with God must surpass the method that the pharisees were using...
NOT that we ignore the commandments altogether.

If one has Faith in Jesus they follow what Jesus and the Apostles taught which has many of the commandments in their teaching. Not oncw did Jesus give all 10 commandments as answer to "what are the commandments?" and He did say If one follows the two great commandments then the ten are covered.

LOL
Right, Jesus did not give ALL 10 commandments all at once to prove them correct.
However, He did encompass all 10 with the 2 Great Commandments.
The 2 Commandments of love will allow a person to keep all of the 10.
By "keep" I don't mean that we will NEVER break any commandment, but keeping them is a requirement for those that are born again.

You say we are to follow Jesus.
Jesus kept all the commandments perfectly...
So how do we follow Him if we don't even try?
You have the concept of keeping the 2 to cover the rest,
so why do you say we are not required to keep the commandments?

Luke 10:18-20
18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
20“You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”

I believe Jesus means for us to keep God's (His) commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hear this moral law presented all the time. I will try to be very liberal. Show me the scriptures.

For instance I read and quote (without the law there is no knowledge of sin) but I get man knows about evil without the Law.

So so every one can get a grip on moral law please quote. This is to help in the discussion.

I never said placed again.
For instance:
Pentecost is the first time for some things to take place a new place.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Check out 108 and 109.

 

[GodsGrace]

Long time no see Hidden In Him, I see your label changed from 2023 Supporter to Staff Admin.

I got asked how do Biblically differentiate these laws, like the cleanliness, ceremonial being obsolete, and the moral laws being applied, since there is Scripture that verbatim has these sections, (this person was trying to say that pork was sinful and thus I'm not Christian or I'm in rebellion), so how do you justify biblically?

Also hi, wondering!

Hi Soldiers,
Good to have you aboard!

People seem to miss the fact that there were 3 types of Law in the OT.
CEREMONIAL
CIVIL
MORAL

The Ceremonial and Civil Laws are obsolete.

We can eat pork.....ceremonial
We don't pluck out our neighbor's eye.....civil

But we still cannot murder someone......Moral.

We are required to keep the Moral Law....the 10 commandments.
We are not required to keep the washing rules and to get purified at certain times, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

If Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, does that mean He has already fulfilled it?
In turn, we should be free from the law, right?

Romans 7;6​

"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Galatians 5;1​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."

Then what does Matthew 11:28 mean?

And what does it mean that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law?
Matthew 5:19-20

 

[Thekjv]

No one on this Forum, that I know of, believes that the Law will save anyone.
Who is saved, is saved by faith in God.

The question becomes, what about after we're saved....
Are we required to adhere to the 10 commandments?
Or is it OK to steal, bear false witness, take the name of God in vain, etc.


Well, do you know what The Law means?
We are no longer under the Law.
We don't have our children killed by our neighbors because they have disobeyed us.
We don't repay in kind to someone that harms us. An eye for an eye.
I think it's OK to boil our meat in milk for some recipies.
I don't have to return my neighbor's cloak before sundown.

There was the Ceremonial Law,
The Civil Law,
and the Moral Law.

To be perfectly clear in that we understand what the law is,
you'll have to tell me that it's OK to take the name of God in vain,
or that it's OK to desire our neighbor's goods,
or that it's just fine to dishonor our parents.

If you agree that the above are OK, then you can state that we are not under ANY Law.
If you believe we must keep the 10 commandments, then you must agree that we are under the MORAL LAW.

Which is it?



Of course we can pull The Commandments out.

Matthew 5:19-20
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
It sounds to me that our being right with God must surpass the method that the pharisees were using...
NOT that we ignore the commandments altogether.


LOL
Right, Jesus did not give ALL 10 commandments all at once to prove them correct.
However, He did encompass all 10 with the 2 Great Commandments.
The 2 Commandments of love will allow a person to keep all of the 10.
By "keep" I don't mean that we will NEVER break any commandment, but keeping them is a requirement for those that are born again.

You say we are to follow Jesus.
Jesus kept all the commandments perfectly...
So how do we follow Him if we don't even try?
You have the concept of keeping the 2 to cover the rest,
so why do you say we are not required to keep the commandments?

Luke 10:18-20
18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
20“You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”

I believe Jesus means for us to keep God's (His) commandments.

Pay close attention to John 15:10
John 13: 34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 14: 15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15: 10

“”Here Jesus separates the commandments; His and His Fathers New and Old””

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15: 12

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

And there is much more new covenant laws. Some are the same as Gods law or commandents and some are of and by Jesus as per John 15:10 Jesus never said follow the 10 he named 5 or 7 and added a new commandment love you neighbor as thyself which cover the same ground as the old . Much of what a new covenant believer believes is the same words as the old; however Jesus said follow his comandments as he followed his Fathers he did not say follow my Fathers commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pay close attention to John 15:10
John 13: 34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 14: 15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15: 10

“”Here Jesus separates the commandments; His and His Fathers New and Old””

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15: 12

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

And there is much more new covenant laws. Some are the same as Gods law or commandents and some are of and by Jesus as per John 15:10 Jesus never said follow the 10 he named 5 or 7 and added a new commandment love you neighbor as thyself which cover the same ground as the old . Much of what a new covenant believer believes is the same words as the old; however Jesus said follow his comandments as he followed his Fathers he did not say follow my Fathers commandments.

Oh my.
Jesus did not say that using heroin is a sin.
So I guess it's OK.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pay close attention to John 15:10
John 13: 34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 14: 15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15: 10

“”Here Jesus separates the commandments; His and His Fathers New and Old””

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15: 12

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

And there is much more new covenant laws. Some are the same as Gods law or commandents and some are of and by Jesus as per John 15:10 Jesus never said follow the 10 he named 5 or 7 and added a new commandment love you neighbor as thyself which cover the same ground as the old . Much of what a new covenant believer believes is the same words as the old; however Jesus said follow his comandments as he followed his Fathers he did not say follow my Fathers commandments.

I do have a much more elaborate reply to the above.
But it's late here.
If I can, I'll link something.
Otherwise, more tomorrow.

The following is pretty good.
I do want to say that you mention Jesus' Law and God's Law as if it were 2 different ideas.
The Law of Love is found in the OT.
Jesus reiterated that love in the NT or New Covenant.
If you notice, all of Jesus' commandments are centered around love.

Also, because He mentioned only some of the 10 and not all of them, we can say that LOVE covers all of them

YOU SHALL LOVE GOD
The first four commandments

YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR
The next 6

AS YOURSELF
You must love God and yourself before you can love anyone else.
This also covers sins to our body (drug use etc.).

1. Moral – No Expiration because it is based on God’s character. “You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy,” (Lev. 19:2)
   
   1. Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)
   2. Love God (Deut. 6:4)
   3. Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
   4. Oppress your neighbor (Lev. 19:13)
   5. Stealing or lying (Lev. 19:11)
   6. Sacrifice children to Molech forbidden (Lev. 20:1-5)
   7. Sexual sins: adultery, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. (Lev. 18:20; 20:9-21; Num. 5:12-15)

source: https://carm.org/about-doctrine/what-are-the-main-divisions-of-the-old-testament-law/

 

[light breeze]

There was the Ceremonial Law,
The Civil Law,
and the Moral Law.

There is no law, there are no commandments of the law. Neither moral nor ceremonial. The flesh clings to the letter of the law. The spiritual one seeks fellowship with God and knows that he is in His will through the Spirit that He has given us.
jhon 3;24
"And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

 

[Rookie]

Oh my.
Jesus did not say that using heroin is a sin.
So I guess it's OK.

Don't forget pedophilia, and cheating on your tax returns!!

 

[Rookie]

Jesus said follow his comandments as he followed his Fathers he did not say follow my Fathers commandments.

But he and his Father are one (John 10:30), so whatever Jesus says, it's as good as what God says, and whatever God says, it's as good as what Jesus says. Your logic is separating the Trinity.

Finding excuses so you can release yourself from conscience and feel free in sin will not help you. Just accept truth, mortify your flesh, and stop causing unnecessary confusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no law, there are no commandments of the law. Neither moral nor ceremonial. The flesh clings to the letter of the law. The spiritual one seeks fellowship with God and knows that he is in His will through the Spirit that He has given us.
jhon 3;24
"And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

I wonder how long you've been a Christian.
I used to believe as you do when I was a new Christian.
So I don't wish to take anything away from your faith in Jesus.
We absolutely need to walk with God in Spirit,
We need to have spiritual fellowship with Him.
Jesus said we must be born AGAIN, perhaps born once naturally and then
born again in our spirit.

I do think it's a little dangerous to preach that we have no law at all to follow...
not even a moral law.

Especially in today's world paradigm where subjective moralism seems to be what is practiced
and, instead, we Christians have God's laws to follow.

BTW, Welcome to the forum !

 

[light breeze]

YOU SHALL LOVE GOD

To love, you need to have love in you. To have love in yourself, you need to accept and grow in the grace that came from Jesus Christ. To grow in grace you must die to the law of commandments.
Peter 2nd 3; 17-18
"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."