Understanding the Two Resurrections

[JLB]

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Can you show a scripture that teaches us all Christians have a messenger of Satan to buffet them.

Paul was given a messenger of Satan to buffet him, because of the the abundance of the revelations, lest I should be exalted above measure.

What is the reason the rest of Christians have been given a messenger of Satan to buffet us?

Please use scripture.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Can you show a scripture that teaches us all Christians have a messenger of Satan to buffet them.

I do and we have discussed this at length. You do not seem to be able to accept that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, or that we all "have" sin as a present tense (1 John 1:8) in-habitation of the flesh (Romans 7:17-20). The answer is in a persons own mind, when they realize that internal temptations ARE in fact of the tempter placing the tempter INTERNAL, in the flesh, to do so. Answer that question for yourself from personal experience and understand 'from whom' it is from.

It may knock religious people off their high horse when they realize this and have a "woe is me" "OH NO" moment.

But it will do no good when believers can't come to an honest conclusion by personal experience. They still remain technically "asleep" on the facts. I also understand that when this is discussed, it is NOT just discussed with "the person" but also with our adversary, who is blinding them. I don't expect the adversary will listen. It won't and can't happen.

Every believer, some for their whole lives, reject this Word of Jesus as not applicable to them. Every Word of God is applicable to every believer, according to Jesus in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4. Yes, even the BAD WORDS we don't care to hear:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

When I hear claims of "I am personally exempt" from the above, I know it's not the voice of a believer speaking, but the voice of the adversary in their minds. And I know this because I made the same claim, in my own blindness/sleep.

It is also impossible to "follow Paul" as he followed Christ, and NOT come to the same conclusions, personally.

 

[eddif]

I don't believe in the preexistence of the soul, BUT if we are sons of God, then by right that demands not just a preexistence, but an eternal existence prior. The portion of God we presently have has always existed and always will.

God knows what the wicked angels will do, long before they do it. I might even say it's scripted.

Read post #109

Leaving the reference off led to some confusion. I respond pretty well to (what are you talking about).

Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the earth, and our body biology pretty much shows that. Wickepedia conduction system of heart (blue overlay of natural pacemaker on heart). The head AV and SA set heart beat.

He predestined us to walk together in love. Somehow that is stretched quite a bit.

eddif

 

[smaller]

Read post #109

Leaving the reference off led to some confusion. I respond pretty well to (what are you talking about).

Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the earth, and our body biology pretty much shows that. Wickepedia conduction system of heart (blue overlay of natural pacemaker on heart). The head AV and SA set heart beat.

He predestined us to walk together in love. Somehow that is stretched quite a bit.

eddif

As sons of God we are birthed of God Himself. And we also have a Divine Mother.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I also did not see anything objectionable in post #109.

 

[JLB]

I do and we have discussed this at length. You do not seem to be able to accept that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, or that we all "have" sin as a present tense (1 John 1:8) in-habitation of the flesh (Romans 7:17-20).

Yes sin in our flesh.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

Paul says the law of sin, is in our members.

What does that have to do with Satan being "in our flesh" as you claim?

The answer is in a persons own mind, when they realize that internal temptations ARE in fact of the tempter placing the tempter INTERNAL, in the flesh, to do so. Answer that question for yourself from personal experience and understand 'from whom' it is from.

Again I ask you to show the scriptures that teach us we have been given [by God] a messenger of Satan to buffet us.

The reason Paul, the writer of most of the New testament, was given a messenger of Satan to buffet him, was because of the the abundance of the revelations, lest I should be exalted above measure.

God allowed this messenger of Satan to buffet him, because of the the abundance of the revelations, lest I should be exalted above measure.

What is the reason the rest of Christians have been given a messenger of Satan to buffet us?

Please use scripture that show specifically that we all have been given a messenger of Satan to buffet us.




JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes sin in our flesh.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

Paul says the law of sin, is in our members.

What does that have to do with Satan being "in our flesh" as you claim?

As stated prior, it is impossible to "follow Paul" as he followed Christ and NOT come to the same conclusions, PERSONALLY. 1 Cor. 11:1.

In the world of scripture there is no difference between a "messenger of Satan" and Satan. They are all of one evil/wicked kingdom and one evil/wicked family. Unseen as "they" are.

It does not take a spiritual genius to come to the conclusion that temptations are internal and are of the tempter.

 

[JLB]

Every believer, some for their whole lives, reject this Word of Jesus as not applicable to them. Every Word of God is applicable to every believer, according to Jesus in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4. Yes, even the BAD WORDS we don't care to hear:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Yes, unbelievers can have the word of God stolen from their heart by Satan.

I am asking about believers who are saved, and serving God, and faithful to walk in the Spirit and keep themselves.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

The wicked one does not touch them.

...does not touch them.

 

[JLB]

As stated prior, it is impossible to "follow Paul" as he followed Christ and NOT come to the same conclusions, PERSONALLY. 1 Cor. 11:1.

What conclusion did Paul come to?

We are discussing your claim of all believers given a messenger of Satan to buffet them.

Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
1 Corinthians 11:1


How does this scripture show us a messenger of Satan has been given to all Christians to buffet them.

Nor does it address why God would given all Christians a messenger of Satan to buffet them.

2 Corinthians 12:7 shows why God would or allow a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul... because of the the abundance of the revelations, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This was unique to Paul and certainly doesn't include all Christians.


Why is the reason God would give a messenger of Satan to buffet all Christians?

Chapter and verse, please.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, unbelievers can have the word of God stolen from their heart by Satan.

Well, no kidding? If sin is of the devil (it is, 1 John 3:8) and temptations are in our flesh (it is, Gal. 4:14) and the tempter tempts BELIEVERS internally (he does) and Paul had a "messenger of Satan" in his own flesh (he did) this is not a hard dot to connect personally.

You seem to believe that Satan commits no theft of Word with believers. I'd say look around you and see the obvious carnage that has been wrought in christiandom for that answer.

I am asking about believers who are saved, and serving God, and faithful to walk in the Spirit and keep themselves.

Believers do have the need to "overcome" our Adversary. That is NOT an external overcoming, but an internal overcoming. We are to reign OVER the working of our adversary, not to deny we have the battle. Eph. 6:11-12.

The battle is not "external" but internal.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

John set up certain scriptural road blocks that can not be passed without being truthful/honest.

When we determine that our own sin is in fact of the devil, we will see how this ENTIRE STATEMENT can be true for a believer (and spare me alternate renderings because those who marred their renderings have changed it, because they can not SEE):

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Both statements are true and applicable to BELIEVERS.

 

[smaller]

What conclusion did Paul come to?

We are discussing your claim of all believers given a messenger of Satan to buffet them.

1 Corinthians 4:11
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

 

[JLB]

If sin is of the devil (it is, 1 John 3:8)

Sin is not of the devil.

That's not what 1 John 3:8 says, smaller.

Don't rearrange scripture to suit your own perspective.

He [the person] who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

The devil sinned himself.

Those who sin are of the devil.

Sin is not the devil.

He who sins is of the devil.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Sin is not of the devil.

That's not what 1 John 3:8 says, smaller.

Please, spare me any further claims that the KJV does NOT say this:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I reject your notion in favor of the obvious.

 

[JLB]

1 Corinthians 4:11
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 1 Corinthians 4:9-11

Thank you for proving that buffeted is beaten.

The messenger of Satan was a man, who had a message from Satan, and was responsible for Paul being beaten [buffeted].





JLB

 

[JLB]

Please, spare me any further claims that the KJV does NOT say this:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I reject your notion in favor of the obvious.

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

 

[smaller]

Thank you for proving that buffeted is beaten.

Only when seen through FLESH eyes is it seen as only "external." That obviously wasn't the case Paul made in 2 Cor. 12:7. The BUFFETER was in fact IN his own flesh.

 

[smaller]

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

Yeah, well maybe you can request a re-write to your intentions:

"Sin is not of the devil."

 

[JLB]

Yeah, well maybe you can request a re-write to your intentions:

"Sin is not of the devil."

Sin is not the Devil.

The devil is not sin.

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8

 

[JLB]

Only when seen through FLESH eyes is it seen as only "external." That obviously wasn't the case Paul made in 2 Cor. 12:7. The BUFFETER was in fact IN his own flesh.

No sir.

2 Corinthians doesn't say the messenger of Satan was in his flesh.

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 7:12

"thorn in the flesh" is a Hebraic idiom, a slang term term for source of irritation or frustration.

This is the same as us saying today.. a pain in the a____.


JLB

 

[smaller]

No sir.

2 Corinthians doesn't say the messenger of Satan was in his flesh.

Boy, I just really don't know where to go with your reading issues sometimes.

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 7:12

I can be quite assured that a messenger of was IN the flesh of Paul. And not some "idiom." But a genuine messenger of Satan, who is NOT an idiom, but a reality, unseen.

Paul did not refer to this thing as an idiom, but an IT.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

I doubt that Paul prayed to be delivered from an idiom.

 

[ezrider]

JLB,

You tried answering my first two questions, but why did you not answer the third question I asked of you.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If as you have stated now these many times now, that the prerequisite to being resurrected from the dead is to have physically died, then why does Paul describe the resurrection of the dead as being first sown in corruption before it can be raised in incorruption? Are you awaiting your physical death so that you may be sown in corruption? For this is the resurrection of the dead, and we have this treasure in our earthen vessels: it is sown in corruption, raised in incorruption. So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Before you get completely carried away with the thorns and thistles again, please answer my questions concerning the resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15:42-44. Why is the resurrection of the dead characterized as first being sown in corruption? Do we physically die from our corruption before we can be sown in corruption?