Understanding the Two Resurrections

[JLB]

I can be quite assured that a messenger of was IN the flesh of Paul. And not some "idiom."

Why? what would make you think this.

Do you understand when we say, "He is a pain in the a___..." that it's not literal?

Do you believe all of this was because Paul had a literal "thorn" in his flesh?

Paul said a "thorn in my flesh" was given to me...

Was it a literal thorn, or a idiomatic reference?


The pain is the a___, the buffeting from the messenger of Satan, which was to keep him humble because of the abundance of his revelations, was the beatings and stonings, that occurred, as well as the message that was deceiving the Gentile Churches he was sent to raise up, which was "you must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved".


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why is the resurrection of the dead characterized as first being sown in corruption?

The resurrection of the dead, is not what was sown in corruption.

The physical body was sown in corruption.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44

Do you understand what this means, sown in corruption?

It is a reference to the physical body.

"Sown" is a reference to the "seed" of your natural father, that traces back to Adam, in which each person is "sown" in the corruption of sin from each generation.

This is what Paul meant when he said... Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men... Romans 5:12

The corrupt "seed" [sperma] of man allowed for sin and death to be reproduced to all men, beginning from Adam, which is why the Messiah had to be born from a virgin and be conceived in sinlessness, without the corrupt seed from Adam.

Do you want to rephrase your question?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Disobedience is a spirit.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That "spirit" is wicked. It is described in great detail in the scriptures, such as in the above, the prince of the power of the air.

Where else do we see the "AIR" played out in scripture? Why, right here:

Mark 4:
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

What does this MEAN?

Jesus tells us exactly what it means, here:

Mark 4:
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Yes, fowls of the air indeed.

Where else do we see these fowls, the spirit of disobedience?

Revelation 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Paul takes off quite nicely on this subject from the above, to here, which I might add is basically IDENTICAL to what Jesus said in Mark 4:15:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Yes, in him was the spirit of disobedience, shown in this way. And he concludes from this, this fact, this LAW that NONE of us avoid either:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is good to remember that we do have spiritually adverse predators when following the bread of LIFE.

The LAW that Paul derived above helps keep these things in mind.

Do believers have an evil conscience?

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

There is no need for "sprinkling" if this wasn't so. Only a TRUE heart can perceive this matter. Only a lying heart would say otherwise.

 

[smaller]

Why? what would make you think this.

Do you understand when we say, "He is a pain in the a___..." that it's not literal?

Were it "something else" other than a messenger of Satan Paul could have certainly deployed an idiom.

There was no need to drag SATAN into the picture and even less reason to see SATAN as an idiom, which is really shaky ground for your claim. Neither Satan nor his wicked angels are IDIOMS. But they DO cause people not to read very well, per Mark 4:15.

 

[JLB]

Were it "something else" other than a messenger of Satan Paul could have certainly deployed an idiom.

Your not understanding my question.

Was "thorn in the flesh" a literal thorn in Paul's flesh, or an idiom [slang term] that meant something else?


JLB

 

[JLB]

There was no need to drag SATAN into the picture and even less reason to see SATAN as an idiom,

I don't see Satan as an idiom, why would you make up such a thing?

I asked if the "thorn in the flesh" was a literal "thorn" or an idiomatic [slang] term for something else?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Your not understanding my question.

Was "thorn in the flesh" a literal thorn in Paul's flesh, or an idiom [slang term] that meant something else?


JLB

The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

Allegory:
a picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning

 

[JLB]

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The evil is plainly described by Paul as sin: the law of sin.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Where did The Holy Spirit provide Paul this connective insight? Right out of the Old Testament:

Isaiah 27
1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

 

[JLB]

The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

Allegory:
a picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning

I totally agree, as the verse plainly says so.

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Paul plainly used the idiomatic expression, to refer to a "messenger of Satan to buffet [beat] him".

The thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to "a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

Do you agree?


JLB

 

[smaller]

The thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to "a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

Do you agree?
JLB

The thorn was a messenger of Satan. The messenger of Satan is NOT an idiom, but a real adverse unseen spiritual entity that was NOT Paul. It was his "evil" present with him. Romans 7:21. It was his "sin" dwelling in his flesh. Romans 7:17-20 that was "no longer I." It was the temptation in his flesh. Gal. 4:14. It was the reason Paul was the chief of sinners after salvation.1 Tim. 1:15. IT responds to the law in adverse fashions, just as Jesus noted in Mark 4:15 and Paul notes in Romans 7:7-13. IT is also the very REAL CAUSE that keeps unbelievers under the power of darkness, of Satan. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

It is for this exact reason that the flesh is against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

And IT is also the sight of TWO resurrections. One for US as believers and one for THEM unto eternal damnation in the LoF.

 

[smaller]

IT also blinds believers minds, so much so that they can't see IT here:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What believers FEAR to hear, they should REJOICE over hearing.

The fact is we all have sin. We all sin. Evil thoughts DO defile us ALL. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23. Therefore we ALL work iniquity. But a blinded believer can not HEAR IT because of IT. They will all blindly hear/see in their own mind, that they do NOT work iniquity when nothing could be further from the truth.

We will LIVE, by Every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Keep that in mind as you follow THE WORD, and understand when it comes to the DIRE WORDS of God in Christ, who IT is for.

 

[JLB]

The thorn was a messenger of Satan. The messenger of Satan is NOT an idiom, but a real adverse unseen spiritual entity that was NOT Paul. It was his "evil" present with him. Romans 7:21. It was his "sin" dwelling in his flesh. Romans 7:17-20 that was "no longer I." It was the temptation in his flesh. Gal. 4:14. It was the reason Paul was the chief of sinners after salvation.1 Tim. 1:15. IT responds to the law in adverse fashions, just as Jesus noted in Mark 4:15 and Paul notes in Romans 7:7-13. IT is also the very REAL CAUSE that keeps unbelievers under the power of darkness, of Satan. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

It is for this exact reason that the flesh is against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

And IT is also the sight of TWO resurrections. One for US as believers and one for THEM unto eternal damnation in the LoF.

The thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to "a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

Do you agree, yes or no?

Based on this statement I'm sure you do

The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

Allegory:
a picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning

JLB

 

[ezrider]

The resurrection of the dead, is not what was sown in corruption.

The physical body was sown in corruption.

The physical body is the corruption we are sown into, but this sowing into corruption is the first stage of the resurrection of the dead.

Do you understand what this means, sown in corruption?

It is a reference to the physical body.

Yes I do understand, and we are in agreement here. The corruption is reference to the physical body.

Do you want to rephrase your question?

No need to rephrase my question.

Why is the resurrection of the dead characterized as first being sown in corruption? Do we physically die from our corruption before we can be sown in corruption?

Paul characterized the resurrection of the dead as being (SO ALSO IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD):
1. It is sown in corruption and dishonor.
a. It is sown a natural body
2. It is raised in incorruption and in glory.
b. It is raised a spiritual body.


This is the resurrection of the dead. Within the resurrection of the dead in Christ, we are first sown in a natural flesh body, a body of corruption, a body of dishonor.

At some point in time, we here the call of the Lord, and if we respond we are said to be born again. This is the birth of the Spiritual body. The growth and maturity of this spiritual body depends on how and where the word is received as Jesus taught in the parable of the sower and the parable of the wheat and tares. For some the Spiritual Body never develops or withers on the vine. When Spiritual Body has matured to a certain point that its fruits have begun to outshine the works and corruption of the natural flesh body, then you might be able to say that you walk after the spirit and not after the flesh. Then can you say that you are spiritually minded and not carnally minded. When the physical body has seen the end of it days or should the Lord return as a consuming fire first, then we shall know only our spiritual body, and know the corruption of the flesh no more.

 

[ezrider]

This might be a little too deep for you given some of your comments JLB, so this comment is more for smaller and eddif to consider.

Why was the natural man given a heart of stone, but the spiritual man a heart of flesh?

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh.

 

[eddif]

This might be a little too deep for you given some of your comments JLB, so this comment is more for smaller and eddif to consider.

Why was the natural man given a heart of stone, but the spiritual man a heart of flesh?

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh.

Well I rekon the stony heart wil never see Jesus.
Stony heart sees:
Oxen - misses the preachers
Fornication - misses lust of eyes
Sabbaths - misses the rest in Christ Jesus
Men's works - misses Jesus's works
Food and drink - misses Revelation 3:20
Holy Days - misses the day of the Lord
His buddies - misses praying for enemies
Sees outward man - misses inner man
His righteousness - misses righteousness of faith in Christ
His ego - misses suffering servant
His gifts - misses the other man's gifts

The new heart can meditate on the word and make it applicable to everything. I wish I could see more.

There is just one name for salvation: Jesus
There is one repentance: John's
There is one trusted Spirit: Holy

Paired with the mind of Christ.

eddif

 

[JLB]

The physical body is the corruption we are sown into, but this sowing into corruption is the first stage of the resurrection of the dead.

No sir.

The physical body was "sown" in corruption.

The physical body comes from the "seed" of man, in which it is down in the corruption of sin, which was passed down from Adam.

Death spread to all men from Adam.

1. It is sown in corruption and dishonor.
a. It is sown a natural body
2. It is raised in incorruption and in glory.
b. It is raised a spiritual body.

All these are are references to the physical body.

"It" refers to the body, not the resurrection.

You have yet to make any point what so ever.

The prerequisite for being resurrected from the dead, is to have physically died.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

"It" refers to the body, not the resurrection.

You have yet to make any point what so ever.

The prerequisite for being resurrected from the dead, is to have physically died.

Yes, "it" refers to the body, but the body exists within the resurrection of Christ: Those that are dead, being yet carnal, and those that are living in Christ, as those who walk after the Spirit.

So if I understand what your saying, then I hear you telling me that you are not Born Again. Are you not born again? That is so sad if you are waiting for your physical death to become Born Again.

Just wondering, but how exactly will you be able to declare the glory of the Lord from the grave, being that you have physically died. Will you leave us an avatar or a meme on your tombstone?

 

[n2thelight]

This sounds Mormonish.

Nothing I can do about how it sounds,did Christ have a body before He became flesh?

 

[JLB]

Yes, "it" refers to the body, but the body exists within the resurrection of Christ: Those that are dead, being yet carnal, and those that are living in Christ, as those who walk after the Spirit.

Those who have died will be resurrected from the dead.

Those who are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them, at His coming.

JLB