ezrider
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Understanding the Two Resurrections
- Thread starter rollinTHUNDER
- Start date
Key Phrase: He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26
Yes I believe that believers in Christ, have eternal life now by faith, and are joined to Him, and are one Spirit with Him.
Just like those in the Church at Thessalonica that Paul rasied up and taught this principle as well.
Those people died, as well as Paul.
They are with the Lord now in heaven, and are not dead, even though their physical bodies are dead, and will return with Him on the last Day, when He comes with all His saints.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
You have asked several questions, of which I have answered them all, and have given you scripture.
For the life of me, I have no idea the point you are trying to make.
Could you please tell me what point you are making?
What is your point.
What is it that I'm sharing here about the resurrection of the dead in Christ, that is so terribly "off", that you would make this statement about what I have posted about this topic?
Here is what you said -
Please show me from what I have posted, where I have completely misunderstood that the resurrection of the dead, is not about the literally, physically dead, being resurrected from the dead.
JLB
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ezrider
Member
I have asked you several question about the scriptures that I have brought into this discussion. While you have indeed given answers, you have given scripture of your own that you are convinced supports the necessity of a physical death to be dead in Christ, instead of addressing the scripture I posted and its relevant content to being "dead in Christ."
If you haven't figured it out yet, then I doubt anything more I say to you will really matter; I've said enough. Maybe instead you should go back and start over at the beginning of the OP and read again with an open heart the content of the posts for what they are instead of trying to judge them for what they are not.
Your insistence that it is a prerequisite to be physically dead in order to be dead in Christ. Could you not even perceive that much from my comments? Your continued use of the one scripture to justify your position demonstrates that you are only concerned with your own carnal bodily resurrection at the last day where the dead shall be raise................. But in this focus on your own bodily resurrection at the last day when the Lord shall appear in the Glory of the Father, then you are only able to see the resurrection at the second death, but understanding the nature of the Spirit under the resurrection of Christ seems to be lost upon you. You don't seem to grasp the actual significance of the First Resurrection.
Show me from any of your post where you understand the two separate natures of the resurrection of Christ as presented in the OP.
In Christ, some are resurrected to life everlasting, some are resurrected to damnation, everlasting shame and contempt.
John 5:29, Daniel 12:2-3
Those who are resurrected to everlasting life follow on the know the Spirit of the Lord as we are formed in the image of his resurrection (Rom 6:5). But those whose are called forth under the resurrection of damnation are the dead in Christ. These continue on to perform the works of the law, the law of sin and death. The dead in Christ have been called forth to the death of Christ on the cross, but they have not proceeded any further, they remain bound before the law beneath the cross where they continue to perform the works of the law by offering Christ over and over again as an offering for their sins, their sins according to the law.
The parable of the wheat and tares of the field demonstrates the two natures of the resurrection of Christ. The Wheat are the children of the kingdom, living through the justification to life through faith in the Spirit of Christ. But the Tares of the field are children of the world. They remain carnal in nature bound to the yoke of sin. These are the dead in Christ.
As the parable of wheat and tares declares to us, the tares are gather first to be burned. The tares of the field, the dead in Christ, those not written in the lamb's book of life, they shall be gather first in bundles to be burned. The parable is no different than what Paul describes when he said the dead in Christ shall rise first. For at the resurrection of the second death, the dead in Christ are raised first to be gathered to be cast into the Lake of Fire. Blessed is he who has his part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power.
Those are your words not mine.
- The prerequisite for being resurrected from the dead, is to have died.
So your believe some of those "in Christ" are resurrected to damnation?
The best thing for you to do is write out the scripture, and comment on the language of the scripture for discussion.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:36-43
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
The tares are the sons of the wicked one, the enemy who sowed them is the devil.
These are not in Christ.
These are the dead in Christ.
JLB
n2thelight
Member
Where are Mosses and Elijah now?Did they not both appear with Christ?They, along with all other's who have died in Christ shall return with Him .
They are not coming to get no flesh body that's been in the ground and has returned to dust.The dead have already changed those alive will be changed to how those returninig with Christ already are...
They are not coming to get no flesh body that's been in the ground and has returned to dust.The dead have already changed those alive will be changed to how those returninig with Christ already are...
smaller
Member
Brilliant deduction. The flesh with it's corruption, dishonor and weakness is put off, 1 Cor. 15:42-47 returned to dust.
We are also told that from that dust arises 2 resurrections. Daniel 12:2. Doesn't mean that dust comes with it or that dust is changed. I might suggest, as you infer, that the resurrection unto eternal life transpires or is fulfilled at death, 2 Cor. 5:8 and the other resurrection is at thee end.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
The bodies of those who have died, will rise from the earth, the place they were buried, and be changed into an immortal body like Jesus.
Jesus rose and came out of the tomb, the place His was buried, and he is the first fruits of those who will be resurrected from the dead at His coming.
Jesus still had the nail prints in the hands of His resurrected body.
Likewise we also shall be like Him when He comes.
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
JLB
smaller
Member
The studies of Jesus or His Body is extensive. It's called Christology. It covers, in basic, Christophany-pre-Incarnation appearances, Incarnation, and post resurrection. All of these contain many different aspects.
Within this Jesus in post resurrection form actual has many "different" appearances. Not only a flesh Body with no blood and holes in it.
1 Cor. 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
These 2 are not necessarily the same. The natural body is actually an "image." The natural body of Christ was also spared a matter that none of the balance of human bodies were promised. That of not seeing 'corruption' even in the post death stage.
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The post resurrection Body of Jesus with added marred features is not always depicted as Jesus appeared prior to crucifixion without same. The two disciples who encountered Jesus on the road to Emmaus for example didn't recognize Him until after He disappeared. In Rev. 1 the appearance of Jesus is not anything resembling how He appeared to disciples shortly after resurrection.
In short, there are many forms of appearances of Jesus in the scriptures.
Here are the facts from scripture, from John Chapter 20:
- Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
- For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.
- 19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
- 24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
- 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
Same body that was crucified, rose from the dead, but transformed.
JLB
smaller
Member
As noted previously that is NOT the only account of the appearance of Jesus, post resurrection.
The accounts vary. For example:
Luke 24:
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
This is no "ordinary" Body. Obviously. Nor are the events surrounding His Appearances, ordinary.
What Paul saw in Acts 9 blinded him. What John saw in Rev. 1 vs. 17, caused him to fall as a dead man.
Jesus described Himself as 'the Light of the world and of life.' John 8:12. Jesus also described Himself as the living bread of life. John 6:35 & 48.
Appearances are not always flesh and bone, with the holes added features. I suspect Jesus could appear any number of ways He Pleased to Appear including other external features added, such as a fire with broiled fish and baked bread suddenly appearing. Do we think He went to the grocery store prior?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Thomas (not at crucification -fled) would have thought (practicing denial) that a few wounds were healed.
What did Jesus suffer?:
Beard pulled out
Bones out of joint
Crown of thorns (not briars)
Kidneys pierced
Hands and feet pierced
Sword thrust in side
Struck
Isaiah 52:14 KJV
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Jesus was wounded so badly, that he was not recognized by sight. His speech (words) gave recognition.
eddif
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Thomas (not at crucification -fled) would have thought (practicing denial) that a few wounds were healed.
What did Jesus suffer?:
Beard pulled out
Bones out of joint
Crown of thorns (not briars)
Kidneys pierced
Hands and feet pierced
Sword thrust in side
Struck
Isaiah 52:14 KJV
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Jesus was wounded so badly, that he was not recognized by sight. His speech (words) gave recognition.
eddif
smaller
Member
I would suspect any serious student of the Word can see the Intentional Divine Symbolism in all of those "marks."
Of course it's not ordinary.
I don't think anyone disagrees on this.
The resurrected body is extraordinary in comparison to the body that has not yet been resurrected.
JLB
What Peter, James and John saw on the mount of transfiguration was also overwhelming to them.
JLB
smaller
Member
We do miraculously manage to connect from time to time.
I sometimes belabor a point, in this case just how "human" the post ressurection Body of Jesus Is. I'd honestly have to say, not much according to the fashions we are shown. But older orthodoxy is a little stuffed shirt on this subject, which is why I pressed a bit to see where your head was at.
smaller
Member
If we understand the principle of "sleep" and physical immobilization during Spiritual Events we'd know "why" that happens:
Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
If we examine most encounters with God in the scriptures we will find this principle in action nearly every time. The enemy in the flesh must be immobilized in order to "hear" properly for a seer. Immediate examples of Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, John and the disciples at the mount of transfiguration come immediately to mind. Even with Adam, a slumber put upon the natural man who could not receive the things of God.
Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
ezrider
Member
Isaiah 29:9-14
Stay yourselves, and wonder;
cry ye out, and cry:
they are drunken, but not with wine;
they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,
which men deliver to one that is learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth,
and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me,
and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Have you ever considered the deep sleep that overcame Adam when the woman was created?
In Acts 2, Peter says they are not drunk with wine, but this is that spoken of by Joel: visions and dreams, and the spirit of slumber?
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ezrider
Member
Just so we understand the question here, and so you may see that they were indeed your words.
I said:
You said:
Here are the words that you said:
"Which means physically dead". You even made the font bold for emphasis, it is right there it is in your own words.
n2thelight
Member
Can't be true,we are not dust,we only had it(flesh)for this age,at death we put off the flesh(dust)and return to the body we already had.....We were never meant to be made flesh....
Ive asked this question before ,what kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman?We were like the angels,did they have flesh bodies?No they did'nt,nor did they need them...
One must understand that we were with the Father before being born...
Why do people think we need that dust,especially when scripture says we have two bodies...
One,the flesh goes back to dust never to be needed again,the other is who we really are,and steps out at death,or the return of Christ,whichever comes first....