Understanding the Two Resurrections

[ezrider]

Those who have died will be resurrected from the dead.

Those who are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them, at His coming.

JLB

Those who have died will be resurrected to the second death. Why is it you only look for the second death? Do you not understand Christ, the FIRST RESURRECTION? Do you know what to expect at his coming? Are you ready for it? Why even Moses described as such, for being so terrible in sight, even I exceedingly fear and quake. Are you ready for his coming? Are you ready for this? Are you ready for the second death and the lake of fire?

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


2 Peter 3:10-12
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Isaiah 40:5-8
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all flesh shall see it together:
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry.
And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass,
and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it:
surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


Yes, as you continue to say JLB, the dead in Christ shall be raised first, then we which are alive and remain... just as the tares of the field are gathered first into bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat....

Matthew 13:29-30
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[eddif]

Matthew - Mark - Luke
Parable of sower
Understanding of seed

Sower is Jesus
Seed is word of God
Ground is men's hearts

I realize there is not just one parable in the bible. I do realize that there are very few parables explained fully by Jesus.

The word that became a body was Jesus.

Paul said that he had not arrived, but strives toward the high calling.

We preach not ourselves, but Jesus.
II Corinthians 4:5 KJV
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

For us to be in the resurrection leading to eternal life:
There is one name under heaven for salvation.

eddif

 

[JLB]

Those who have died will be resurrected to the second death.

the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Those Christians who have died, will be resurrected from the dead, and are caught up to be with the Lord.

This is not the second death.

The second death is being cast into the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Yes, as you continue to say JLB, the dead in Christ shall be raised first, then we which are alive and remain... just as the tares of the field are gathered first into bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat....

The dead in Christ, are those who are "in Christ", who are resurrected from the dead.

They are caught up in the air, to be with Jesus as He returns to earth, to reign and rule as King over all the earth, from Jerusalem: The city of the great King.

These are those who shall always be with Jesus, and have attained the resurrection of the dead, and are sons of God; being sons of the resurrection.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36


The tares are not "in Christ", nor are they sons of God, but rather these are the sons of the wicked one, who are gathered up to be burned in the fire, by the angels.

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:37-43


JLB

 

[smaller]

This might be a little too deep for you given some of your comments JLB, so this comment is more for smaller and eddif to consider.

Why was the natural man given a heart of stone, but the spiritual man a heart of flesh?

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh.

God quite purposefully planted "all" mankind with "internal" evil, corruption, weakness, dishonor and eventually death. There was NEVER any intentions on Gods part to have the flesh exist for an eternity. There is intentions for a first natural man in our mutual plantings, and a last man.

The flesh man is covered with lies. He lives and breathes denial of his state of being. And that is intentional. The flesh man can do nothing different.

Even every believer has a very hard time accepting our "present" reality, and instead will think we are other than what we really are. They will consistently deny our factual planting conditions. They will consistently deny that our sin is demonic. But that really is our present state, bound into the flesh with LIARs who can not be honest if our lives depended on it.

And oddly enough, this is PROOF of the Gospel, in reverse.

God did all of these things PRECISELY to demonstrate His Divine Mercy. Rather than running away from these more dire aspects of our present life, we should rather understand and submit to the reality here that God has wrought and quit making excuses for Him and for ourselves. A good and HONEST heart is what we have when we are IN TRUTH. An honest heart will come to "scriptural" conclusions of fact. But they are rather unpleasant facts to enter into. Not everyone is led to that and instead are led into hypocrisy and even more lies, because of our very real adversary.

The "reality" of faith is that God in Christ is both our Savior and our FOE.

 

[smaller]

Those who have died will be resurrected to the second death. Why is it you only look for the second death? Do you not understand Christ, the FIRST RESURRECTION? Do you know what to expect at his coming? Are you ready for it? Why even Moses described as such, for being so terrible in sight, even I exceedingly fear and quake. Are you ready for his coming? Are you ready for this? Are you ready for the second death and the lake of fire?

Believers who are giddily excited about the "end time" and wish for it's hastening don't realize what they are asking for.

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:11
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

 

[Sinthesis]

Nothing I can do about how it sounds,did Christ have a body before He became flesh?

Logically, no.

 

[JLB]

The thorn was a messenger of Satan. The messenger of Satan is NOT an idiom, but a real adverse unseen spiritual entity that was NOT Paul. It was his "evil" present with him. Romans 7:21. It was his "sin" dwelling in his flesh. Romans 7:17-20 that was "no longer I." It was the temptation in his flesh. Gal. 4:14. It was the reason Paul was the chief of sinners after salvation.1 Tim. 1:15. IT responds to the law in adverse fashions, just as Jesus noted in Mark 4:15 and Paul notes in Romans 7:7-13. IT is also the very REAL CAUSE that keeps unbelievers under the power of darkness, of Satan. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.
And IT is also the sight of TWO resurrections. One for US as believers and one for THEM unto eternal damnation in the LoF.

The thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to "a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

Do you agree, yes or no?

Based on this statement I'm sure you do.

smaller said: ↑
The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

Allegory:
a picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning

JLB

 

[smaller]

The thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to "a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

Do you agree, yes or no?

Based on this statement I'm sure you do.

Satan and his messengers are NOT idioms. They are real adverse spiritual entities that have influences over, in and upon the flesh of all. I actually don't know why you seem unable to grasp this rather simple scriptural point. Well, actually I DO know why it can't be grasped. It's not your fault.

 

[JLB]

Believers who are giddily excited about the "end time" and wish for it's hastening don't realize what they are asking for.

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:11
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

and again

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:12

We are to be looking for and hastening the coming of the Lord.

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:13-15

I fully realize what I'm asking for, for this is my blessed hope.


For those who are deceivers and teachers of false doctrine, it will be horrifying.


Please learn to rightly divide the word of truth.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Satan and his messengers are NOT idioms. They are real adverse spiritual entities that have influences over, in and upon the flesh of all. I actually don't know why you seem unable to grasp this rather simple scriptural point. Well, actually I DO know why it can't be grasped. It's not your fault.

I have never said Satan is an Idiom.

Again, as I have said, Satan is real.

Here it is again, please stop making up false statements that you willingly and intentional say to side step the question.

I have asked you to answer the question:


From your perspective, Is the thorn in the flesh, is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to "a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

yes or no?

Based on this statement I'm sure your answer is yes.

↑
The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

Allegory:
a picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning

Can you answer?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Again, as I have said, Satan is real.

Then stop trying to make the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh an idiom. I shared the scripture set from the old testament earlier in this thread that makes this IDENTICAL connection to the DEVIL, as A THORN. And it's no idiom, but a reality.

 

[JLB]

Then stop trying to make the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh an idiom. I shared the scripture set from the old testament earlier in this thread that makes this IDENTICAL connection to the DEVIL, as A THORN. And it's no idiom, but a reality.

My question comes from this statement you made.

smaller said
The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

I agree. But do you agree.

The messenger of Satan is real, and is what the allegorical expression points to.

Please answer the question:

From your perspective, Is the thorn in the flesh, is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to"a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

yes or no?

 

[smaller]

My question comes from this statement you made.
I agree. But do you agree.

The messenger of Satan is real, and is what the allegorical expression points to.

Please answer the question:

From your perspective, Is the thorn in the flesh, is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to"a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

yes or no?

There is no doubt that Paul said a "messenger of Satan" was IN his flesh.

Idiom as you please from there. Satan and his messengers are REAL adverse spiritual entities. There would be zero reason for Paul to turn "them" into IDIOMS.

The identification of the THORN to the SERPENT, the DRAGON is made in the Old Testament as well, here for example:

Isaiah 27
1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

If you don't see the connections here I really have nothing more to say about it other than these adversaries put out believers eyes so they can't read.

It takes a spiritual man to know "his own sin" is demonic.

 

[JLB]

There is no doubt that Paul said a "messenger of Satan" was IN his flesh.

The messenger of Satan is real, and is what the allegorical expression points to.



From your perspective, Is the thorn in the flesh, is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to"a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

yes or no?

 

[ezrider]

The prerequisite for being resurrected from the dead, is to have physically died.


JLB

So if I understand what your saying, then I hear you telling me that you are not Born Again. Are you not born again? That is so sad if you are waiting for your physical death to become Born Again.

Do you consider yourself to be Born Again? Or are you waiting for your physical death that you might be born again?

 

[smaller]

The messenger of Satan is real, and is what the allegorical expression points to.

From your perspective, Is the thorn in the flesh, is an idiomatic [slang] expression, that refers to"a messenger of Satan to buffet me".

yes or no?

The messenger of Satan that was IN Paul's flesh was a messenger of Satan IN Paul's flesh.

You can idiom it away if you want, to try to eliminate the messenger of Satan into NOT being a messenger of Satan, but his statement was a statement of FACT, regardless of such (quite feeble) attempts to make it go away.

There is more than ample evidence in the scriptures, particularly in the Gospels, to show that the residence of Satan and his messengers is IN the flesh of MAN. And this remains a fact to this day.

I might suggest a gut check for your understandings is in order.

From Paul, we can see TWO resurrections. One for him unto eternal life, and one for the messenger of Satan to eternal damnation, perhaps on the near horizon, or at least nearer today than it was when Paul was alive.

 

[JLB]

The messenger of Satan that was IN Paul's flesh was a messenger of Satan IN Paul's flesh.

You can idiom it away if you want, to try to eliminate the messenger of Satan into NOT being a messenger of Satan, but his statement was a statement of FACT, regardless of such (quite feeble) attempts to make it go away.

There is more than ample evidence in the scriptures, particularly in the Gospels, to show that the residence of Satan and his messengers is IN the flesh of MAN. And this remains a fact to this day.

I might suggest a gut check for your understandings is in order.

From Paul, we can see TWO resurrections. One for him unto eternal life, and one for the messenger of Satan to eternal damnation, perhaps on the near horizon, or at least nearer today than it was when Paul was alive.

Paul uses an idiomatic phrase, that pointed to a reality.

Idiomatic phrase: "thorn in the flesh"
Reality: Messenger of Satan to buffet me.

This is obvious to me, and everyone else, and I suspect it is obvious to you as well based on this statement you made from an earlier post:

From Post # 147.

The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

These are your words.

What is also obvious, is that you have taken an idiomatic phrase, that points to a reality, and "blended" parts of each of these together, so that the part of the idiomatic phrase, "flesh" is now been moved over to the reality, along with "Satan" so that you have the man made hybrid term "Satan in the flesh".

Idiomatic phrase: "thorn in the flesh"
Reality: Messenger of Satan to buffet me.

The reality is what Paul said in the scripture, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

This does not say, a messenger of Satan in my flesh.

The "thorn in my flesh" was allegorical, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, was the reality that the allegorical pointed to.

Just as you said - The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul uses an idiomatic phrase, that pointed to a reality.

Idiomatic phrase: "thorn in the flesh"
Reality: Messenger of Satan to buffet me.

This is obvious to me, and everyone else, and I suspect it is obvious to you as well based on this statement you made from an earlier post:

What's obvious to me is that a messenger of Satan was IN Paul's flesh. And the spiritual term that is used (one of many such terms) is THORN. Also "thistle" also "dragon" also "serpent" also "leviathan" also "children of the flesh."

The list is quite extensive to "depict" their reality. None of these terms are idioms, but expressions of that real adverse agent and his cohorts with real adverse powers called "darkness" and "evil" and "sin" and "death."

Trying to minimize them is in fact "their work" in the people who do so.

 

[JLB]

Do you consider yourself to be Born Again? Or are you waiting for your physical death that you might be born again?

I am born again, and Spirit baptized, and also water Baptized.

I'm awaiting Jesus to return, to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture.

If I'm alive at that time, then I will be awaiting the rapture.

If I have died before he returns, then I will be awaiting the resurrection.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What's obvious to me is that a messenger of Satan was IN Paul's flesh.

Do you believe the phrase "thorn in the flesh" refers to a literal thorn in Paul's flesh, or do you believe it is a allegorical term that refers to the literal messenger of Satan to buffet him ?


JLB