Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[F345T]

Ok, fair enough. Will you please provide me with the clearest and most explicit declaration of Jesus to be God in the Bible?

For what purpose? So that you can attack, and attempt to dismantle, it?

I think it'd be a short cut to simply ask why you believe that Jesus is not God.

If Jesus were God, what specific part of your personal belief system would that be a threat to?

I'm being very sincere. Please explain why it's so important to you that Jesus not be God.

 

[Runningman]

For what purpose? So that you can attack, and attempt to dismantle, it?

I think it'd be a short cut to simply ask why you believe that Jesus is not God.

If Jesus were God, what specific part of your personal belief system would that be a threat to?

I'm being very sincere. Please explain why it's so important to you that Jesus not be God.

Actually I would believe Jesus if God if he just would have said that. "Yes I am God..." would have sufficed. Sure, he said a lot of things that can be possibly interpreted in such a way that maybe he was hinting at being God. However, I want to be sure about this before just assuming that's what he was really trying to say. I need an explicit declaration.

I am a Christian and I follow Jesus' teachings, but the shadow of doubt is not removed for me. I see that all of the things Jesus did or had others can have too. How about what is something that beyond all doubt singles Jesus out of as God?

After all that, what I do know is that there is an individual who is singled out as being the only true God in scripture. Thus far I have found the plainest and literal understanding of those texts to be the most helpful for me.

 

[F345T]

Actually I would believe Jesus if God if he just would have said that. "Yes I am God..." would have sufficed. Sure, he said a lot of things that can be possibly interpreted in such a way that maybe he was hinting at being God. However, I want to be sure about this before just assuming that's what he was really trying to say. I need an explicit declaration.

I am a Christian and I follow Jesus' teachings, but the shadow of doubt is not removed for me. I see that all of the things Jesus did or had others can have too. How about what is something that beyond all doubt singles Jesus out of as God?

After all that, what I do know is that there is an individual who is singled out as being the only true God in scripture. Thus far I have found the plainest and literal understanding of those texts to be the most helpful for me.

Okay, that's fair.

Can I ask how familiar you are with the Bible? I ask because there are countless professed Christians who have been going to church for many years, or even went to seminary, and learned everything they believe to be true about the Bible from others.

Have you ever taken the diligent time and commitment to study the Bible cover to cover? If so, I would be surprised that you didn't notice so many things Jesus did that absolutely no mortal man could ever do.

Yes, there are a number of verses that are as close to "I AM God" as possible, and the number of times Jesus said the words "I AM" have been understood for thousands of years to be an explicit statement that He is God based on a reference to the Old Testament declarations of the Father saying "I AM" and the Jews that were present when Christ said it knew that was exactly what He was saying as they understood the language perfectly and the OT reference and wanted Him dead for it.

Another great verse is Revelation 1:8 where Jesus says "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, ... which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

But there are things that He did like knocking 600 big, strong Roman soldiers backwards, off their feet and onto their backs simply by speaking the words "I AM" in John 8:58. Jesus raised people from the dead, He made the lame walk, the blind see. He disappeared before a crowd of people who were trying to seize Him to make Him their king and supernaturally transported Himself to another part of the city in (verse to come). He was seen by multiple witnesses walking on water during a severe storm and then commanding that storm to be silent, which it did post-haste in Matt. 8:23-27.

How bout Jesus' conception. Are you familiar with that? How is a mortal man conceived with only the mother's egg? If Jesus was mortal, who is His human father?

It really doesn't follow sound logic to say that you will believe Jesus is God if you find a verse in the Bible showing Him saying exactly the phrase you wish to see ... when you at the same time decide that you don't trust other things that are written in that same Bible. It really just comes down to you, personally. If you have decided that you don't believe Jesus is God, no amount of evidence is going to convince you. For those of us who have been blessed with faith and the Holy Spirit, the evidence jumps out at us at every turn and all throughout the Scriptures.

I pray that you receive that faith and the discernment of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SolaScriptura]

"... the head of every man is Christ; ... and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor. 11:3

This verse means the head of Christ is the Father, it doesn't mean the head of Christ is the Trinity.

You are referring to a passage, that is speaking of Jesus Christ, post Incarnation, as the God-Man, which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ as YHWH from all eternity.

Like, when Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). And, yet, in John 5:23, Jesus also says, that He is to receive the SAME Honor as the Father, and those who do not Honor Him, do not Honor the Father. And, in 10:30, that He and the Father are One as God.

Jesus has existed as YHWH, with the Father and Holy Spirit, Who are also YHWH, in the Eternal Godhead, from eternity past. At the time of His Conception in the Virgin Mary, Jesus took on himself the very nature of humans, with the exception of sin, and was the God-Man. This is very clear in Philippians 2:5-8, etc.

 

[F345T]

At the time of His Conception in the Virgin Mary, Jesus took on himself the very nature of humans, with the exception of sin, and was the God-Man. This is very clear in Philippians 2:5-8, etc.

I hope you're not claiming that Jesus was incapable of sin in the flesh.

That would require a total rewrite of the entire New Testament, if not the whole Bible.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You are referring to a passage, that is speaking of Jesus Christ, post Incarnation, as the God-Man, which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ as YHWH from all eternity.

Like, when Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). And, yet, in John 5:23, Jesus also says, that He is to receive the SAME Honor as the Father, and those who do not Honor Him, do not Honor the Father. And, in 10:30, that He and the Father are One as God.

Jesus has existed as YHWH, with the Father and Holy Spirit, Who are also YHWH, in the Eternal Godhead, from eternity past. At the time of His Conception in the Virgin Mary, Jesus took on himself the very nature of humans, with the exception of sin, and was the God-Man. This is very clear in Philippians 2:5-8, etc.

To be honest, I've been holding a negative view on the trinity doctrine not because it's false, but it complicates a simple mechanism through which God communicates with his people, and it distracts us from what really matters in our spiritual growth, which includes practicing our faith, repenting our sins, building relationship with Jesus and discerning the signs of the time through bible prophecies. The whole narrative of the bible is centered around Jesus, every major OT hero is a prototype of Jesus, and the trinity is all about Jesus - God the Father is only known as the Father through Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit guards you from other evil spirits and points to Jesus. If you really believe that Jesus is YHWH, then just follow him, love him by obeying his commandments. Wherever you are, he's there with you. If you know Jesus intimately, then you know God and the Holy Spirit intimately.

 

[SolaScriptura]

To be honest, I've been holding a negative view on the trinity doctrine not because it's false, but it complicates a simple mechanism through which God communicates with his people, and it distracts us from what really matters in our spiritual growth, which includes practicing our faith, repenting our sins, building relationship with Jesus and discerning the signs of the time through bible prophecies. The whole narrative of the bible is centered around Jesus, every major OT hero is a prototype of Jesus, and the trinity is all about Jesus - God the Father is only known as the Father through Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit guards you from other evil spirits and points to Jesus. If you really believe that Jesus is YHWH, then just follow him, love him by obeying his commandments. Wherever you are, he's there with you. If you know Jesus intimately, then you know God and the Holy Spirit intimately.

It has nothing to do with what I believe. It is what the Infallible, Inspired 66 Books of the Holy Bible Teaches, that really matters!

This Bible is very clear, that there is One Eternal Godhead, and there are Three distinct Persons, Who are equally YHWH, in this Godhead.

The Bible is also very clear, that, for anyone who denies or rejects, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are not equally YHWH, as the Father, then they cannot enter heaven. Not to believe in the Absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, is to reduce them to being Created, as us humans are! This, the Bible does NOT teach.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I hope you're not claiming that Jesus was incapable of sin in the flesh

ABSOLUTELY, 100%!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It has nothing to do with what I believe. It is what the Infallible, Inspired 66 Books of the Holy Bible Teaches, that really matters!

This Bible is very clear, that there is One Eternal Godhead, and there are Three distinct Persons, Who are equally YHWH, in this Godhead.

The Bible is also very clear, that, for anyone who denies or rejects, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are not equally YHWH, as the Father, then they cannot enter heaven. Not to believe in the Absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, is to reduce them to being Created, as us humans are! This, the Bible does NOT teach.

You know, I pointed this out before, what you're doing is playing identity politics, you're using the trinity doctrine to identify "us" and exclude "them". Jesus never said those who don't understand the trinity can't enter heaven. He only indicated that hypocrites who only honor him with lip service can't enter heaven.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You know, I pointed this out before, what you're doing is playing identity politics, you're using the trinity doctrine to identify "us" and exclude "them". Jesus never said those who don't understand the trinity can't enter heaven. He only indicated that hypocrites who only honor him with lip service can't enter heaven.

This is what Jesus says in John 8:24-25

"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you the Beginning""

And, in verse 58

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"

Literally, "become Abraham even existed, I AM". This is The Eternal Name of YHWH

It is very clear, that if anyone does not believe that Jesus Christ is YHWH, they will die in their sins, and therefore be lost in eternal punishment in hell! These are the very Words of God Incarnate.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is what Jesus says in John 8:24-25

This is essentially the same as Jn. 3:18 - "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." What you must believe is his deity, not the trinity doctrine. I'm not your enemy, I'm on your side, I defended His deity in this thread, you can check the record.

 

[SolaScriptura]

This is essentially the same as Jn. 3:18 - "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." What you must believe is his deity, not the trinity doctrine. I'm not your enemy, I'm on your side, I defended His deity in this thread, you can check the record.

You accept that Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. What about the Holy Spirit?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You accept that Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. What about the Holy Spirit?

Let me put it in this way, the only thing I don't accept is the rhetoric of describing God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as three "persons". You can say three beings, three entities or three powers, but not three persons, because neither God nor the Holy Spirit is a person in flesh and blood, only Jesus is a person in flesh and blood. "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind." (Num. 23:19, NIV)

 

[SolaScriptura]

Let me put it in this way, the only thing I don't accept is the rhetoric of describing God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as three "persons". You can say three beings, three entities or three powers, but not three persons, because neither God nor the Holy Spirit is a person in flesh and blood, only Jesus is a person in flesh and blood. "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind." (Num. 23:19, NIV)

“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)

“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within.

Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these.

(William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)

“PERSONALITY. In the first place, we endeavor to establish the personality of the Holy Spirit. By this we here mean that the Holy Spirit is a real being, possessing intelligence, and performing personal actions; not, however, a being distinct and separate in essence from the Father. We understand the one undivided essence or being in the Godhead to exist in three distinct persons—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We would prove the personality of the Holy Ghost, 1. By the appellations; 2. By the actions; 3. By the honors, ascribed to him. If these be such as can only be applicable to a real and personal existence, then the inference will be clear that the Holy Spirit is a real and personal being, and not a mere abstract attribute, energy, or influence.”

(Thomas Ralston - Elements of Divinity, p.40)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)

“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within.

Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these.

(William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)

“PERSONALITY. In the first place, we endeavor to establish the personality of the Holy Spirit. By this we here mean that the Holy Spirit is a real being, possessing intelligence, and performing personal actions; not, however, a being distinct and separate in essence from the Father. We understand the one undivided essence or being in the Godhead to exist in three distinct persons—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We would prove the personality of the Holy Ghost, 1. By the appellations; 2. By the actions; 3. By the honors, ascribed to him. If these be such as can only be applicable to a real and personal existence, then the inference will be clear that the Holy Spirit is a real and personal being, and not a mere abstract attribute, energy, or influence.”

(Thomas Ralston - Elements of Divinity, p.40)

Let me put it in this way, man. We both believe and accept the trinity - or godhead, but we have very different understandings of it. There's this classic illustration of the trinity which you must be very familair with - a triangle, with "father", "son" and "spirit" at the three points and "God" in the center, connected to the three points. Then it reads, father - is not - son, son - is not - spirit, spirit - is not - father, but all three are God. That is a very misleading picture which splits God into three lesser roles and causes confusion. Some end up with tritheism, some modalism, some perceive it as a new idol and straight up reject it. I'm not saying I'm one of them, I'm just presenting you this situation.

A better illustration that more accurately captures the relationship of the three goes like this: there's this bottomless chasm that reads SIN, on one side is God, on the other side is you and the Holy Spirit, then right across the chasm is a bridge which is Jesus. Instead of creating an intellectual barrier like that classic illustration does, this one closes the distance and shows who Jesus is - the one and only access to God.

 

[Randy]

Me too. So what's the problem? One God, also known as the Father, and one Lord (of the Church) Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you're still conflating the One God known as the Father with the Lord of the church, Jesus. It is often overlooked that there is a divine hierarchy.

Jesus is Lord of the Church - Colossians 1:18
God is the Lord of Jesus - 1 Corinthians 11:3
The church belongs Jesus - 1 Corinthians 3:23
Jesus belongs to God - 1 Corinthians 3:23

He is not the Father. All agree
The Father is the only true God. Not all agree

You seemed to object to statements declared in regard "to about that Son" in Hebrews. And that God brought the creation into existance through that Son. Which sparked disagreement.

I am really still not sure who you state Jesus was before He came down from heaven.
Who is the Jesus who was and is now again to you?

 

[F345T]

ABSOLUTELY, 100%!

That is really sad, but it's not a shock considering the rest of what you preach here.

If Jesus were incapable of sin then He accomplished absolutely nothing at all in the flesh and there was no reason at all for Him to humble Himself by becoming a man and overcoming anything.

What a sad, sad state of affairs to have so many believing such utter nonsense.

That is the problem with receiving a Biblical education from churches and seminaries.

I will continue to pray for those who believe as you do.

What a shame.

 

[F345T]

You accept that Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. What about the Holy Spirit?

They're all the same individual.

That's something you refuse to grasp yet, amazingly, it answers all of your challenging questions about God's nature and it is 100% Biblical.

Coincidence?

 

[SolaScriptura]

They're all the same individual.

NO. The Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are THREE distinct Persons, and One Godhead

 

[F345T]

NO. The Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are THREE distinct Persons, and One Godhead

Ah, but you say they're the same "being".

Yes?