Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Runningman]

He is not the Father. All agree
The Father is the only true God. Not all agree

You seemed to object to statements declared in regard "to about that Son" in Hebrews. And that God brought the creation into existance through that Son. Which sparked disagreement.

I am really still not sure who you state Jesus was before He came down from heaven.
Who is the Jesus who was and is now again to you?

If you had read what I wrote about them you would know exactly what I believe. Just read my comments. Most of your later comments have either ignored or didn’t address what I said.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Ah, but you say they're the same "being".

Yes?

"Being", as in Godhead, or Divine Nature as in Romans 1:20, "θειότης"

 

[F345T]

"Being", as in Godhead, or Divine Nature as in Romans 1:20, "θειότης"

There is no reference to "being" in Rom. 1:20. And Godhead is defined in the Bible there as Divine Nature. There's nothing in that verse to indicate any trio in one "being" or anything of the like.

 

[Runningman]

Okay, that's fair.

Can I ask how familiar you are with the Bible? I ask because there are countless professed Christians who have been going to church for many years, or even went to seminary, and learned everything they believe to be true about the Bible from others.

Have you ever taken the diligent time and commitment to study the Bible cover to cover? If so, I would be surprised that you didn't notice so many things Jesus did that absolutely no mortal man could ever do.

Studying the Bible, attending a "church", with frequency for years guarantees nothing. There are a lot of theologians, whether layman or professional, who have no idea what they are talking about. By some estimations there are over 45,000 so-called Christian denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and/or cults worldwide.

The thing about the Bible is that people establish a theological framework and then superimpose it over the Bible. They will understand things relative to how they want to view it.

Jesus did discuss this a bit, speaking of those who hear his words put them into practice is like a wise person who built their house on a rock. You can't build without a solid foundation. Start with what is sure, what is absolutely, what is explicit. For example, when I asked for an explicit declaration that Jesus is God, rather than simply playing the ace up your sleave, you changed the topic because there isn't an explicit declaration that Jesus is God. Therefore it's the wrong place to begin your foundation. Do not build upon assumptions and ambiguous statements. Begin with something like John 17:3 that explicitly and undeniably says the Father is the only true God and build from there.

I have been studying the Bible for years, almost daily, with frequency and intensity. I began many years ago when I first went to a Trinitarian church. I didn't believe them, but they told me to be a Berean and fact check everything they said against the Bible. After I fact checked them I tried to understand what they provided within the theological framework they had established. It wasn't until I stopped reading the Bible for a long time and came back to it that I realized they had no idea what they were talking about. Apparently a good long break was the detox I needed to let the indoctrination fade away so I could begin seeing things clearly.

Yes, there are a number of verses that are as close to "I AM God" as possible, and the number of times Jesus said the words "I AM" have been understood for thousands of years to be an explicit statement that He is God based on a reference to the Old Testament declarations of the Father saying "I AM" and the Jews that were present when Christ said it knew that was exactly what He was saying as they understood the language perfectly and the OT reference and wanted Him dead for it.

The Bible doesn't force the reader to interpret that as Jesus being God. I have already studied the Greek words for that and stating ego eimi isn't a declaration of being God.

Another great verse is Revelation 1:8 where Jesus says "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, ... which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Very few Bibles that utilize the red letter system for the words of Jesus paint that verse red. It means most Bibles do not represent that verse as something Jesus said.

But there are things that He did like knocking 600 big, strong Roman soldiers backwards, off their feet and onto their backs simply by speaking the words "I AM" in John 8:58. Jesus raised people from the dead, He made the lame walk, the blind see. He disappeared before a crowd of people who were trying to seize Him to make Him their king and supernaturally transported Himself to another part of the city in (verse to come). He was seen by multiple witnesses walking on water during a severe storm and then commanding that storm to be silent, which it did post-haste in Matt. 8:23-27.

Peter walked on water too, Paul raised someone from the dead, others were healed of illnesses and also made to walk again by other disciples. None of that demonstrates the deity of Jesus.

How bout Jesus' conception. Are you familiar with that? How is a mortal man conceived with only the mother's egg? If Jesus was mortal, who is His human father?

Regardless, he was descended from Adam according to Luke 3.

It really doesn't follow sound logic to say that you will believe Jesus is God if you find a verse in the Bible showing Him saying exactly the phrase you wish to see ...

It's very sound logic to not assume a human being is God.

when you at the same time decide that you don't trust other things that are written in that same Bible.

What do I not trust in the Bible?

It really just comes down to you, personally. If you have decided that you don't believe Jesus is God, no amount of evidence is going to convince you.

Jesus saying he is God would convince me. He didn't do that did he?

For those of us who have been blessed with faith and the Holy Spirit, the evidence jumps out at us at every turn and all throughout the Scriptures.

I pray that you receive that faith and the discernment of the Holy Spirit.

And you don't believe things the way I do. Maybe you're the one who is wrong. Is that possible or no?

 

[F345T]

Studying the Bible, attending a "church", with frequency for years guarantees nothing. There are a lot of theologians, whether layman or professional, who have no idea what they are talking about. By some estimations there are over 45,000 so-called Christian denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and/or cults worldwide.

The thing about the Bible is that people establish a theological framework and then superimpose it over the Bible. They will understand things relative to how they want to view it.

Jesus did discuss this a bit, speaking of those who hear his words put them into practice is like a wise person who built their house on a rock. You can't build without a solid foundation. Start with what is sure, what is absolutely, what is explicit. For example, when I asked for an explicit declaration that Jesus is God, rather than simply playing the ace up your sleave, you changed the topic because there isn't an explicit declaration that Jesus is God. Therefore it's the wrong place to begin your foundation. Do not build upon assumptions and ambiguous statements. Begin with something like John 17:3 that explicitly and undeniably says the Father is the only true God and build from there.

I have been studying the Bible for years, almost daily, with frequency and intensity. I began many years ago when I first went to a Trinitarian church. I didn't believe them, but they told me to be a Berean and fact check everything they said against the Bible. After I fact checked them I tried to understand what they provided within the theological framework they had established. It wasn't until I stopped reading the Bible for a long time and came back to it that I realized they had no idea what they were talking about. Apparently a good long break was the detox I needed to let the indoctrination fade away so I could begin seeing things clearly.


The Bible doesn't force the reader to interpret that as Jesus being God. I have already studied the Greek words for that and stating ego eimi isn't a declaration of being God.

Very few Bibles that utilize the red letter system for the words of Jesus paint that verse red. It means most Bibles do not represent that verse as something Jesus said.


Peter walked on water too, Paul raised someone from the dead, others were healed of illnesses and also made to walk again by other disciples. None of that demonstrates the deity of Jesus.


Regardless, he was descended from Adam according to Luke 3.

It's very sound logic to not assume a human being is God.


What do I not trust in the Bible?


Jesus saying he is God would convince me. He didn't do that did he?


And you don't believe things the way I do. Maybe you're the one who is wrong. Is that possible or no?

Yeah, like I said.

You've made a personal decision to refuse to believe Jesus is God. You were not taught that by Scripture.

You could save everyone a lot of time here simply by stating that.

Good luck with whatever it is you are seeking in the Bible, because it certainly isn't Truth. Rather than studying the Bible for what IT teaches, you have decided Jesus is not God and you are seeking evidence from within Scripture to support your preconceived belief.

Your insistence that Jesus is not God is a Jewish/Muslim belief. Have you looked into those religions?

Maybe a better fit?

Christianity is all about accepting that Christ is God and embracing and following the ways of Jesus Christ.

Christians are followers of Christ. Are you a Christian? Honest question.

 

[Runningman]

Yeah, like I said.

You've made a personal decision to refuse to believe Jesus is God. You were not taught that by Scripture.

And you've made a personal decision to believe a man is God, disregarding a lot of scripture to the contrary.

You could save everyone a lot of time here simply by stating that.

I don't believe Jesus is God because the Bible says he isn't. Jesus himself denied it.

Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

Good luck with whatever it is you are seeking in the Bible, because it certainly isn't Truth. Rather than studying the Bible for what IT teaches, you have decided Jesus is not God and you are seeking evidence from within Scripture to support your preconceived belief.

I am just following what the Bible says. John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6. Eph 4:6, etc all explicitly say the only God is the Father. This is also all over the Old Testament.

Your insistence that Jesus is not God is a Jewish/Muslim belief. Have you looked into those religions?

Maybe a better fit?

Your insistence that Jesus is God is idolatry.

Christianity is all about accepting that Christ is God and embracing and following the ways of Jesus Christ.

No it isn't. There is nothing in the gospel of salvation that says "You must believe Jesus is God."

Christians are followers of Christ. Are you a Christian? Honest question.

Okay, show me where Christ said he is God and I'll follow it. If he didn't say it then you aren't following what Jesus said, but rather personal belief.

 

[Runningman]

There is no reference to "being" in Rom. 1:20. And Godhead is defined in the Bible there as Divine Nature. There's nothing in that verse to indicate any trio in one "being" or anything of the like.

Correct, it is the Divine Nature and having a divine nature is not an indicator of deity.

2 Peter 1
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

 

[Randy]

If you had read what I wrote about them you would know exactly what I believe. Just read my comments. Most of your later comments have either ignored or didn’t address what I said.

If you can point me to the post where you state who the Son was before the incarnation, I will read it. I don't ignore your comments I reply to them with the NT testimony with clear contradictions to your interpretations. But I don't remember you ever stating your stance on who the Son who came down from the Fathers presence in Heaven was. The one who ascended to where He was before. You do seem to reject that all the fullness of God dwells in Him. So if you point me to that post on the Son who was I will reread your understanding. Assuming you believe He was from the beginning not just a glorified man. OR you can just answer that question.

 

[Randy]

NO. The Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are THREE distinct Persons, and One Godhead

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"?

The Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out "MY SPIRIT"...
So while the Spirit of the only true God has the Fathers nature how is that a distinct person from the Father?
All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

So as in all things from the Father and through the Son.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit"?

The Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out "MY SPIRIT"...
So while the Spirit of the only true God has the Fathers nature how is that a distinct person from the Father?
All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

So as in all things from the Father and through the Son.

as The God-Man, after The Incarnation, Jesus Christ has a complete "human nature", which includes the human will and spirit. It is this "spirit" that He "committed" to the Father. This is NOT The Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God It is argued by some, that verses in the Bible, like John 17:3, where the Father is called, “The only True God”; and Romans 16:27, where the Father is called, “God only wise”; that Jesus Christ is not “God” (ὁ θεὸς), because in these passages, the Father is...

christianforums.net

 

[Randy]

as The God-Man, after The Incarnation, Jesus Christ has a complete "human nature", which includes the human will and spirit. It is this "spirit" that He "committed" to the Father. This is NOT The Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God It is argued by some, that verses in the Bible, like John 17:3, where the Father is called, “The only True God”; and Romans 16:27, where the Father is called, “God only wise”; that Jesus Christ is not “God” (ὁ θεὸς), because in these passages, the Father is...

christianforums.net

If Jesus had a human soul and a human body what part of Him was God?

It's clear to me the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him.

Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I have used this as an example before. Let's see if we can plug it in here:

Trinity is a word used to express the doctrine of the oneness of God as existing within the three distinct Persons (or personalities) of the one God. It is originates from the Greek word "trias." The first time "trias" was used was by Theophilus around 168-183 A D. The first time for the Latin term "trinitas" was by Tertullian in 220A.D. to express the Trinity doctrine. We can break down the doctrine to these four points:
1. There is only one God (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29, 32).
2. The Father is God and is a divine Person or Personality distinguishablly different from the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Exo. 4:22-24, Isa. 44:6. 1Cor.8:6)
3. Jesus Christ is equally God, and is a Person distinguishablly different from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (Deut. 18:15, Dan. 3:23-24, John 1.1; 14, John 5:18)
4. The Holy Spirit is equally God and a divine person distinguishally different from the Father and the Son. ( Genesis 1.2, Isa. 63:14, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4)

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed to help people understand the relationship between God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Remember that, at this time 168-183 A.D., believers did not have access to a completed Bible as we do. They received their teaching through oral communication. So doctrines were introduced to help believers retain critical information.

So how can three distinct persons be one distinct person? This doesn't seem possible. How can three ones be one in total?

1 • One • I = 1 or One or I.

I can multiply any form of one in any order. Each of the ones are separate, distinct unto itself, yet they all equal each other to the point that any form may be used as the answer. That is probably as close as I can get to explaining the doctrine of the Trinity.

Have I fully explained the Trinity? Of course not. How can the finite (me) fully describe the infinite (God)? I hope this helps a little in the discussion. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hey All,
I have used this as an example before. Let's see if we can plug it in here:

Trinity is a word used to express the doctrine of the oneness of God as existing within the three distinct Persons (or personalities) of the one God. It is originates from the Greek word "trias." The first time "trias" was used was by Theophilus around 168-183 A D. The first time for the Latin term "trinitas" was by Tertullian in 220A.D. to express the Trinity doctrine. We can break down the doctrine to these four points:
1. There is only one God (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29, 32).
2. The Father is God and is a divine Person or Personality distinguishablly different from the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Exo. 4:22-24, Isa. 44:6. 1Cor.8:6)
3. Jesus Christ is equally God, and is a Person distinguishablly different from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (Deut. 18:15, Dan. 3:23-24, John 1.1; 14, John 5:18)
4. The Holy Spirit is equally God and a divine person distinguishally different from the Father and the Son. ( Genesis 1.2, Isa. 63:14, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4)

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed to help people understand the relationship between God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Remember that, at this time 168-183 A.D., believers did not have access to a completed Bible as we do. They received their teaching through oral communication. So doctrines were introduced to help believers retain critical information.

So how can three distinct persons be one distinct person? This doesn't seem possible. How can three ones be one in total?

1 • One • I = 1 or One or I.

I can multiply any form of one in any order. Each of the ones are separate, distinct unto itself, yet they all equal each other to the point that any form may be used as the answer. That is probably as close as I can get to explaining the doctrine of the Trinity.

Have I fully explained the Trinity? Of course not. How can the finite (me) fully describe the infinite (God)? I hope this helps a little in the discussion. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

How about the simple 1x1x1=1

 

[Runningman]

If you can point me to the post where you state who the Son was before the incarnation, I will read it. I don't ignore your comments I reply to them with the NT testimony with clear contradictions to your interpretations. But I don't remember you ever stating your stance on who the Son who came down from the Fathers presence in Heaven was. The one who ascended to where He was before. You do seem to reject that all the fullness of God dwells in Him. So if you point me to that post on the Son who was I will reread your understanding. Assuming you believe He was from the beginning not just a glorified man. OR you can just answer that question.

I addressed this in post #324

"John 6 says Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. Jesus compared himself to the manna that came down from heaven. The manna that came down from heaven isn't God. God sent the manna and God sent Jesus. It isn't as though the manna was sitting up in the sky since eternity waiting to be delivered to the Israelites then for the comparison to be accurate then neither was Jesus."

 

[F345T]

And you've made a personal decision to believe a man is God, disregarding a lot of scripture to the contrary.


I don't believe Jesus is God because the Bible says he isn't. Jesus himself denied it.

Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.


I am just following what the Bible says. John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6. Eph 4:6, etc all explicitly say the only God is the Father. This is also all over the Old Testament.


Your insistence that Jesus is God is idolatry.


No it isn't. There is nothing in the gospel of salvation that says "You must believe Jesus is God."


Okay, show me where Christ said he is God and I'll follow it. If he didn't say it then you aren't following what Jesus said, but rather personal belief.

No thanks.

I've proven your position wrong over and over for close to 15 years.

The Bible says some literally can't hear the Truth.

Wish you the best.

 

[Runningman]

No thanks.

I've proven your position wrong over and over for close to 15 years.

The Bible says some literally can't hear the Truth.

Wish you the best.

I debunked your position. Okay, you can't accept the truth as is often the case with religious folk. Thoughts and prayers for you.

 

[F345T]

I debunked your position. Okay, you can't accept the truth as is often the case with religious folk. Thoughts and prayers for you.

I'll ask once again:

Are you a Christian or not?

If you're not, you will be reported as this is a Christian discussion forum.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I addressed this in post #324

"John 6 says Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. Jesus compared himself to the manna that came down from heaven. The manna that came down from heaven isn't God. God sent the manna and God sent Jesus. It isn't as though the manna was sitting up in the sky since eternity waiting to be delivered to the Israelites then for the comparison to be accurate then neither was Jesus."

This is blatant HERESY!

 

[F345T]

He is not the Father. All agree
The Father is the only true God. Not all agree

You seemed to object to statements declared in regard "to about that Son" in Hebrews. And that God brought the creation into existance through that Son. Which sparked disagreement.

I am really still not sure who you state Jesus was before He came down from heaven.
Who is the Jesus who was and is now again to you?

He claims that Jesus is a mortal man, but can't answer a single question about how that aligns with mounds of Scripture.

 

[Josef]

I addressed this in post #324

"John 6 says Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. Jesus compared himself to the manna that came down from heaven. The manna that came down from heaven isn't God. God sent the manna and God sent Jesus. It isn't as though the manna was sitting up in the sky since eternity waiting to be delivered to the Israelites then for the comparison to be accurate then neither was Jesus."

Hey All,
The same John that you quote said Jesus was with God and was God.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John says Jesus made all things.

So, how is John contradicting this in chapter 6?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz