Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Runningman]

We are going in circles and you are unable to hear anything in regard to Jesus as a being before Mary gave birth to Jesus.

I’m the one who is giving you outreach. If you need to go in circles for an extra mile then I can repeat what you need to hear as long as necessary.

You deny the explicit stated Supremacy of the Son. The beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation as in before all things. I assume you do acknowledge Jesus is the beginning of the resurrection He spoke of and the Firstborn from the dead. But He was given the Supremacy in all things.
I find to deny the preexistance of the Son is untenable from scripture. We will have to agree to disagree. Because repeating ourselves over and over isn't accomplishing anything but taking up our time.

Nothing in the Bible explicitly identifies Jesus as God. The only True God is the Father since that is what John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Eph. 4:6 clearly say.

This isn’t a matter of you finding workarounds, loopholes, and pitting scripture versus scripture, but rather a spiritual condition on your part. It’s fascinating to watch you attach your beliefs to the Bible then when the Bible is quoted you seem to not believe it. I truly question what motivates you.

And Firstborn from the dead means the first to rise from the dead.
The same language in that passage of scripture in regard to Jesus as stated He is Firstborn of all creation or as Rev 3:14 the beginning of the creation of God. Before all other things.

So Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? Then he wasn’t God’s son until after the resurrection.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father before all ages but not made.

Jesus is a human. All humans are created.

Again feel free to read ALL the translations. The meaning is not born again but all the fullness of God from the will of another.

Colossians 1:19 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus is born from above and others can be born from above according to John 3. Once again you seem to miss the fact that anything Jesus had we can have.

But again we will have to agree to disagree because I am getting tired of repeating myself to deaf ears.

Okay. When you are open to believing what the Bible says I will be here.

 

[Randy]

I’m the one who is giving you outreach. If you need to go in circles for an extra mile then I can repeat what you need to hear as long as necessary.

Nothing in the Bible explicitly identifies Jesus as God. The only True God is the Father since that is what John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Eph. 4:6 clearly say.

This isn’t a matter of you finding workarounds, loopholes, and pitting scripture versus scripture, but rather a spiritual condition on your part. It’s fascinating to watch you attach your beliefs to the Bible then when the Bible is quoted you seem to not believe it. I truly question what motivates you.

So Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? Then he wasn’t God’s son until after the resurrection.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus is a human. All humans are created.


Jesus is born from above and others can be born from above according to John 3. Once again you seem to miss the fact that anything Jesus had we can have.

Okay. When you are open to believing what the Bible says I will be here.

The only claim I have made on these forums is that I know Jesus and He knows me. The Jesus I know was with the Father in the beginning as a living being.

So we will disagree. Unless there is another biblical Unitarian among us your not going to be able to convince any other that Jesus's life began in Marys womb.

 

[GodsGrace]

Irrelevant? Then nothing else to give you regarding. Your attitude toward sound doctrine and scripture is duly noted.


You're rejecting them.


Verse about what Jesus was doing in heaven before?


It seems this is purely ad hominem. I know your misunderstanding about me won't age well.


One God the Father through whom all things came. You deny this apparently.


They continued referring to Jesus as a man decades after he was carried to heaven. When you pray, you call God a man?


The fullness of God can dwell in anyone.

Ephesians 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.


But he is not the Father and therefore he is not God.

Matt 23
9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.



God is God in every context, however, you are correct that he is not God.


Firstborn refers to rank among siblings. God is not your spiritual sibling.


I already addressed this man. Did you pull out a concordance and actually look into this? The universe itself was not created through Jesus.


The context of those passage refers to the church. I can't help you if you will not actually read the context of passages you're quoting.


No one ever called Jesus mighty God in the Bible because he isn't the Everlasting Father.


Read John 1:9 about the True Light (God) that gives light to every man coming into the world. That means Jesus isn't the God giving light to himself. As you know, the true light is God, not Jesus.

1 John 1
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

You have demonstrated your rejection of scripture thus far.


Your message is just laced with ad hominem, accusations. The accuser of the brethren is Satan. It isn't a good look for you to do what Satan does.


The one on the throne is God and the lamb is not God.

Rev 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Jesus died. When Jesus died, did God die? If God died then your position would be that there is no God. You really haven't through this through at all it seems. It seems you just have a bunch of church dogma. What denomination do you belong to?

It is a accepted Christian theology that everything was created by Jesus, the Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m the one who is giving you outreach. If you need to go in circles for an extra mile then I can repeat what you need to hear as long as necessary.

Nothing in the Bible explicitly identifies Jesus as God. The only True God is the Father since that is what John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Eph. 4:6 clearly say.

This isn’t a matter of you finding workarounds, loopholes, and pitting scripture versus scripture, but rather a spiritual condition on your part. It’s fascinating to watch you attach your beliefs to the Bible then when the Bible is quoted you seem to not believe it. I truly question what motivates you.

So Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? Then he wasn’t God’s son until after the resurrection.

Romans 1
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus is a human. All humans are created.


Jesus is born from above and others can be born from above according to John 3. Once again you seem to miss the fact that anything Jesus had we can have.

Okay. When you are open to believing what the Bible says I will be here.

You've listed yourself as a Christian.
Christians have a set of beliefs.
One of them is that Jesus is God.

If you don't believe this you're worshipping a man.

If you're not worshipping Jesus, you're not
CHRISTian.

 

[Runningman]

The only claim I have made on these forums is that I know Jesus and He knows me. The Jesus I know was with the Father in the beginning as a living being.

So we will disagree. Unless there is another biblical Unitarian among us your not going to be able to convince any other that Jesus's life began in Marys womb.

I am not trying to convert you, but since this is a Bible discussion forum, I think we can come together and reason on the common ground of the Bible, of which we both believe in, though apparently in different ways. It seems this is often not possible.

On the matter of converts to Unitarianism, I have a very high success rate because I rely on the very clear and direct plain text reading of the Bible that doesn't forsake logic and reason. God is the Father and His Son is Jesus. Jesus never said he is God. We Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Messiah, but that's the end. We can back it up with pure, coherent, scripture. The common person can receive and digest this easily without the need for Sunday school indoctrination.

You rely on creeds, church dogma, and things that aren't even stated in the Bible. While I am sure you mean well, good intentions are not always enough. Here's something I hand picked for you that I think will serve you best.

God bless.

Luke 18
9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Runningman]

It is a accepted Christian theology that everything was created by Jesus, the Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

That isn't what the Bible says. I personally wouldn't conflate Trinitarianism with Christianity.

 

[Runningman]

You've listed yourself as a Christian.
Christians have a set of beliefs.
One of them is that Jesus is God.

You don't seem to know what a Christian is. We Christians rely on the Bible as our source of authority. If you really believe you need to believe Jesus is God to be a Christian then you apparently have not read the Bible. It says no such thing. Maybe your church or your circle of buddies say that, but you and the whole lot are wrong.

If you don't believe this you're worshipping a man.

I do not believe Jesus is God so I don't worship a man as God.

If you're not worshipping Jesus, you're not
CHRISTian.

You have said this repeatedly and, for the record, I don't care what you think about this point. You aren't my judge and you're wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't seem to know what a Christian is. We Christians rely on the Bible as our source of authority. If you really believe you need to believe Jesus is God to be a Christian then you apparently have not read the Bible. It says no such thing. Maybe your church or your circle of buddies say that, but you and the whole lot are wrong.

I do not believe Jesus is God so I don't worship a man as God.

You have said this repeatedly and, for the record, I don't care what you think about this point. You aren't my judge and you're wrong.

I would wonder why so much pushback from Christians. Maybe because they're correct in their theology?

 

[Runningman]

I would wonder why so much pushback from Christians. Maybe because they're correct in their theology?

Other Christians contradict your opinion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Other Christians contradict your opinion.

It's not an opinion RM.
It's what makes us Christian.

What makes you a Christian?
Even JWs agree that Jesus is the son of God.
And they are not considered to be Christian.
Why should you?

 

[Runningman]

It's not an opinion RM.
It's what makes us Christian.

What makes you a Christian?

So the Christians who reject your opinion, are they also not Christian? Are you the monopoly holder on who is Christian and who isn't? You still haven't even provided a Biblical basis for your beliefs. Me thinks you don't have one.

Even JWs agree that Jesus is the son of God.
And they are not considered to be Christian.
Why should you?

You're conflating "son of God" which is Biblical with "God the son" which is not Biblical. JWs do believe Jesus is the son of God, but not that he is God Himself. On this point, they are correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

So the Christians who reject your opinion, are they also not Christian? Are you the monopoly holder on who is Christian and who isn't? You still haven't even provided a Biblical basis for your beliefs. Me thinks you don't have one.


You're conflating "son of God" which is Biblical with "God the son" which is not Biblical. JWs do believe Jesus is the son of God, but not that he is God Himself. On this point, they are correct.

But you believe he's just a man.
That's even worse.
So if they aren't Christian, why are you?

And I'm not going to debate with you as to whether water is wet. We don't get to decide that. It's wet and that's it.

I'm interested in why you think you're christian.

 

[Runningman]

But you believe he's just a man.
That's even worse.
So if they aren't Christian, why are you?

And I'm not going to debate with you as to whether water is wet. We don't get to decide that. It's wet and that's it.

I'm interested in why you think you're christian.

I am a disciple of Jesus and I believe what he said to his followers and about his God. Therefore I am a Christian. It seems you are trying to minimize this and possibly erode my faith or make me doubt this. Do you want me to follow Christ or should I be following what you say and yet have provided no Biblical support for?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a disciple of Jesus and I believe what he said to his followers and about his God. Therefore I am a Christian. It seems you are trying to minimize this and possibly erode my faith or make me doubt this. Do you want me to follow Christ or should I be following what you say and yet have provided no Biblical support for?

If I'm eroding your faith I'll stop right now.

I do want to say this and then it's very late here.
I'm not inferring in any way that you are any less saved than anyone else. Our doctrine certainly is not what saves us, but Jesus will save all those that desire to be with God.

What I'm saying is that if you want to be called Christian then christian tenets must be accepted.

I have a couple that are JWs, nice friends. They tell me they're christian.

So could we make up our own definition of what the christian tenets are?

Again, this has nothing to do with our salvation.

Tomorrow.

 

[Runningman]

If I'm eroding your faith I'll stop right now.

You couldn't, but I don't know why else you would spend so much time trying to convince me I am not a Christian when actually I am.

I do want to say this and then it's very late here.
I'm not inferring in any way that you are any less saved than anyone else. Our doctrine certainly is not what saves us, but Jesus will save all those that desire to be with God.

What I'm saying is that if you want to be called Christian then christian tenets must be accepted.

I do accept the Christian tenets.

I have a couple that are JWs, nice friends. They tell me they're christian.

I know some Trinitarians. Nice people and they say they're christian too.

So could we make up our own definition of what the christian tenets are?

I am not making anything up though. Let's go with what you're saying though. You're saying in order to be a Christian then one must believe Jesus is God. No one in the Bible apparently believe he is God. Where are you seeing this?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Man, this is so frustrating, watching you guys squabbling about whether our Lord and Savior is man *or* God. Why does it have to be an either-or scenario? Why can't he be both? Jesus was born of flesh AND spirit, see Rom. 1:2-3. If a king disguised as a commoner in plain clothing, everybody except a few close guards know his true identity, is he a king or a commoner? This is a typical logical fallacy known as false dichotomy - presenting two mutually exclusive options as the only options and forcing others to pick a side, when actually those two options are NOT mutually exclusive, or there're third, fourth or more options. You are spiritually blinded as long as you're stuck with this black and white mentality.

 

[Runningman]

Man, this is so frustrating, watching you guys squabbling about whether our Lord and Savior is man *or* God. Why does it have to be an either-or scenario? Why can't he be both? Jesus was born of flesh AND spirit, see Rom. 1:2-3. If a king disguised as a commoner in plain clothing, everybody except a few close guards know his true identity, is he a king or a commoner? This is a typical logical fallacy known as false dichotomy - presenting two mutually exclusive options as the only options and forcing others to pick a side, when actually those two options are NOT mutually exclusive, or there're third, fourth or more options. You are spiritually blinded as long as you're stuck with this black and white mentality.

If you saw a man walk down the street with other men, how do you know which one is God?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you saw a man walk down the street with other men, how do you know which one is God?

Abraham did when God appeared to him with two angels. They ate and rested as men. See Gen 18.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you saw a man walk down the street with other men, how do you know which one is God?

"My sheep heed my voice."
"The wise will understand."

 

[Randy]

Man, this is so frustrating, watching you guys squabbling about whether our Lord and Savior is man *or* God. Why does it have to be an either-or scenario? Why can't he be both? Jesus was born of flesh AND spirit, see Rom. 1:2-3. If a king disguised as a commoner in plain clothing, everybody except a few close guards know his true identity, is he a king or a commoner? This is a typical logical fallacy known as false dichotomy - presenting two mutually exclusive options as the only options and forcing others to pick a side, when actually those two options are NOT mutually exclusive, or there're third, fourth or more options. You are spiritually blinded as long as you're stuck with this black and white mentality.

That's not what your proof citation states, No mention of being born of spirit.

The gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

The preexistence of the Son as a being
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me

This is a theology forum and many different subjects are discussed at length. I just disagreed with your statement. As I believe the Son who was, His Spirit, was in that body.

John the baptist knew from God about where the Christ came from and testified clearly of that truth and I believe TRUTH does matter.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

I have the Spirit of Christ in me but our friend stated He's not here to "convert me". No power can snatch me out of Jesus's hands.