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Unique, Not Only-Begotten

We don't get to decide.
To be Christian one must:

BELIEVE IN GOD
BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD (OR WE'RE WORSHIPPING A MAN)
BELIEVE HE DIED AND WAS RESURRECTED
BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY

If you don't believe in the above, what exactly makes you be Christian?
We can bow to Jesus and honor him in this way, but that's the extent of it. Jesus never commanded he himself be worshipped as God, God never commanded anyone to worship him as God, etc. When Jesus spoke of worship he directed worship to his Father who seeks those who will worship in spirit and in truth. However, when we bow to Jesus then 100% of the glory goes to the Father.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
 
Great, and who did the disciples say Jesus is?
They understood that He was someone special.
They understood that He forgave sins and only God can forgive sins.
After the resurrection, they understood that He was God.

He told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach,
and baptize IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Do you think Jesus thought there were 3 Gods?
He was Jewish.
He knew
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear O Israel, The LORD is our God,
the LORD is one.

Do you believe Jesus turned into a heretic?

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
 
No thanks. It seems you're only trying to attack and dismantle the clear scripture about the Father being the only true God according to John 17:3.

so you think that ONE verse in the Bible, because it suits your "theology", is all that is needed, and every other verse that say Jesus Christ is GOD, YHWH, ELOHIM, should be ignored and rejected?
 
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so you think that ONE verse in the Bible, because it suits your "theology", is all that is needed, and every other verse that say Jesus Christ is GOD, YHWH, ELOHIM, should be ignored and rejected? This is being dishonest!
I believe we've all been debating with Runningman for a long period of time and may need some time off.

Let's all just pull back a bit and take a break.
I'd rather not have to lock this thread but it might become necessary
if it gets out of hand.
Thanks.
 
We don't get to decide.
To be Christian one must:

BELIEVE IN GOD
BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD (OR WE'RE WORSHIPPING A MAN)
BELIEVE HE DIED AND WAS RESURRECTED
BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY

If you don't believe in the above, what exactly makes you be Christian?
What it takes to become a Christian .

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
Case in point, there are no quotes or actions to cite by Jesus in the Old Testament. He didn't exist except in prophecy.
But where do you draw the line between using the Bible to support your claims and then declaring that it doesn't mean what it says elsewhere.

How do you explain Jesus knocking 600 Roman Soldiers backward and off their feet simply by speaking?

Is that not what the Scripture plainly says?

"As soon then as He had said unto them, I am He, they went backward, and fell onto the ground."

John 18:6
 
Thomas didn't say to Jesus "you are God" so I believe you're misunderstanding him. Thomas said that because he was basically saying "omg Jesus has holes in his hands and in his side."

Rather than point at all the things others said and your reasoning behind why you think that makes Jesus God, how about you simply quote Jesus' explicit declaration that he is God? Are you a follower of Thomas or a follower of Jesus? Serious question.
This is the problem with you here.

It's been quoted to you already, but you refuse to accept it. You just make up all manner of nonsense excuses not to admit it is what it is.

Here it is again:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, ... which is and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 1:8

The only way outta that is to completely deny that the Scripture says what it plainly says. That's blasphemy!
 
Scripture does not show Jesus is God. Begin with John 17:3 that explicitly identifies the Father as the Only True God. That means there are no other Gods aside from the Father.
Nobody here has once stated that Jesus is a separate God from the Father.

That's just nonsense you are continuing to make up.
 
And you've made a personal decision to believe a man is God, disregarding a lot of scripture to the contrary.
There are none to the contrary. There are many verses which clearly show the humanity of Jesus and there are many verses which clearly show the deity of Jesus. The doctrine of the Trinity makes sense of both, without one trumping the other. Your position takes those of his humanity and ignores or overrides those of his deity.

I don't believe Jesus is God because the Bible says he isn't. Jesus himself denied it.

Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.
The NT repeats it many times and Jesus never denied it. Even the verse you quote could be seen as a rheotrical question by Jesus, pointing out that the man just implied that Jesus was God.

I am just following what the Bible says. John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6. Eph 4:6, etc all explicitly say the only God is the Father. This is also all over the Old Testament.
John 17:3 proves the deity of Jesus, particularly when we take the context into account.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)

Notice that eternal life is contingent on knowing both the Father and the Son, not just the Father. Besides, everything that John says and records about Jesus is based on what he says in his prologue. And his prologue is unequivocally clear that Jesus is in nature God. More than that, though, we need to look at additional context:

Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Jesus is claiming to have existed before creation, which is in full agreement with John 1:1-3. But then it also becomes necessary to look at a couple of verses in Isaiah:

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. (ESV)

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

So, how can it be that John 17:3 says that only the Father is God, if eternal life is contingent on knowing both the Father and the Son, and then two verses later Jesus is stating his eternal preexistence with the Father, sharing in the glory of the Father which Yahweh says he gives to no other? It all points to Jesus being God. Jesus points to the Father to bring him glory, but that does not preclude Jesus from also being truly God.

1 Cor 8:6 proves that Jesus is God.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, some theologians, such as N.T. Wright, see it as Paul's expansion of the Shema. Compare:

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Second, if you want the verse to say that "one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. Yet that would contradict what Paul writes in many passages, such as1 Tim. 6:15. It would also contradict numerous other passages in the NT, such as Luke 10:21.

Third, if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence and his nature as God, then it necessarily follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence and nature as God. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed in John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2, 8-12; 2:10.

So, simple, sound logic leads to the only conclusion that Jesus, or rather the Son, is also God in nature. Yet, he clearly is distinct from the Father.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (ESV)

Likewise, Eph 4:5 would preclude the Father from being Lord if only the Father is God. But notice that from verses 4-6 all three persons of the Trinity are mentioned--"one Spirit," "one Lord," "one God." It in no way means that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not also God. If it does, then v. 5 means that the Father isn't Lord, nor is he the Spirit according to v. 4. Additionally, we can't take verses in isolation, this is how erroneous beliefs arise.

Your insistence that Jesus is God is idolatry.
No, it is the historical, orthodox Christian position that is absolutely core to the faith.

No it isn't. There is nothing in the gospel of salvation that says "You must believe Jesus is God."
If a person doesn't believe Jesus is God, then don't believe in either the Jesus or the God of the Bible. Yet, as John 17:3 states, one must know both in order to have eternal life.

Okay, show me where Christ said he is God and I'll follow it. If he didn't say it then you aren't following what Jesus said, but rather personal belief.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

He didn't say it much at all and when he did, it is typically implied. More than once the Jews correctly understood Jesus's claims to be God, to be equal to the Father, and wanted to stone him for it. Thomas also rightly understood who Jesus was and called Jesus his Lord and his God, without one objection from Jesus, which would have been blasphemous if he hadn't actually been God in human flesh.
 
They understood that He was someone special.
They understood that He forgave sins and only God can forgive sins.
After the resurrection, they understood that He was God.

He told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach,
and baptize IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Do you think Jesus thought there were 3 Gods?
He was Jewish.
He knew
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear O Israel, The LORD is our God,
the LORD is one.

Do you believe Jesus turned into a heretic?

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
Deuteronomy 6:4 says there is one God and Jesus repeated it in Mark 12:29 say that it is of most importance.

Now the Bible says there is only one God, the Father. Jesus said it, Paul said it, and this is what all of the disciples believed. They were not divided on the issue or somehow mistook that to mean Jesus is God. Jesus being God is not a Biblical doctrine, but rather it's a doctrine that many make the mistake of making because they misunderstood that Jesus is what is possible for someone with God's anointing to be. Anything Jesus did or inherited is something those with God's anointing can be.

Paul was also explicit about God being one, as well, in 1 Corinthians 8.

1 Cor. 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Isaiah also correctly pointed out the the one God is the Father. His personal name is YHWH, not Jesus.

Isaiah 63
16Yet You are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us
and Israel does not acknowledge us.
You, O LORD, are our Father;
our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.
 
Nobody here has once stated that Jesus is a separate God from the Father.

That's just nonsense you are continuing to make up.
I don't believe Jesus is a separate God from the Father because he isn't God. If you have three persons who are one God then that's polytheism.

You may try to get around this by saying that God is the one who is in the three members of your pantheon, but in that case none of them are God, but rather God is the substance or essence who is in them. This is also false as well.
 
This is the problem with you here.

It's been quoted to you already, but you refuse to accept it. You just make up all manner of nonsense excuses not to admit it is what it is.

Here it is again:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, ... which is and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 1:8

The only way outta that is to completely deny that the Scripture says what it plainly says. That's blasphemy!
Revelation 1:8 is not Jesus speaking. Look at any Bible that uses red-lettering for the words of Jesus and you will find maybe one or two that use red lettering for that verse, but the vast majority of Bible scholars, including myself, disagree with you.
 
But where do you draw the line between using the Bible to support your claims and then declaring that it doesn't mean what it says elsewhere.

How do you explain Jesus knocking 600 Roman Soldiers backward and off their feet simply by speaking?

Is that not what the Scripture plainly says?

"As soon then as He had said unto them, I am He, they went backward, and fell onto the ground."
John 18:6
There's your problem. It doesn't specify how many fell to the ground nor is that helpful for the point you're imagining. Start with the fact Jesus denied being God be directly and when was accused of such things he also denied it.

What is your workaround for Jesus still being God after, contrary to the accusations against him, he said he's a man?

John 8​
40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.​

Or how about when his accusers said he's a God and he said back he is the Son of God? See? He didn't agree with what they said.

John 10​
33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

How about when Jesus asked who people say he is and when Peter said the Christ and Son of God, that Peter was praised because this is the only answer revealed by God in heaven? That means Peter was correct for not saying Jesus is God.

Matt 16​
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”​
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah!b For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.​

It seems what you lack for your religion are any explicit declarations of what you actually believe.
 
There are none to the contrary. There are many verses which clearly show the humanity of Jesus and there are many verses which clearly show the deity of Jesus. The doctrine of the Trinity makes sense of both, without one trumping the other. Your position takes those of his humanity and ignores or overrides those of his deity.


The NT repeats it many times and Jesus never denied it. Even the verse you quote could be seen as a rheotrical question by Jesus, pointing out that the man just implied that Jesus was God.


John 17:3 proves the deity of Jesus, particularly when we take the context into account.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)

Notice that eternal life is contingent on knowing both the Father and the Son, not just the Father. Besides, everything that John says and records about Jesus is based on what he says in his prologue. And his prologue is unequivocally clear that Jesus is in nature God. More than that, though, we need to look at additional context:

Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Jesus is claiming to have existed before creation, which is in full agreement with John 1:1-3. But then it also becomes necessary to look at a couple of verses in Isaiah:

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. (ESV)

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

So, how can it be that John 17:3 says that only the Father is God, if eternal life is contingent on knowing both the Father and the Son, and then two verses later Jesus is stating his eternal preexistence with the Father, sharing in the glory of the Father which Yahweh says he gives to no other? It all points to Jesus being God. Jesus points to the Father to bring him glory, but that does not preclude Jesus from also being truly God.

1 Cor 8:6 proves that Jesus is God.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, some theologians, such as N.T. Wright, see it as Paul's expansion of the Shema. Compare:

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Second, if you want the verse to say that "one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. Yet that would contradict what Paul writes in many passages, such as1 Tim. 6:15. It would also contradict numerous other passages in the NT, such as Luke 10:21.

Third, if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence and his nature as God, then it necessarily follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence and nature as God. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed in John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2, 8-12; 2:10.

So, simple, sound logic leads to the only conclusion that Jesus, or rather the Son, is also God in nature. Yet, he clearly is distinct from the Father.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (ESV)

Likewise, Eph 4:5 would preclude the Father from being Lord if only the Father is God. But notice that from verses 4-6 all three persons of the Trinity are mentioned--"one Spirit," "one Lord," "one God." It in no way means that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not also God. If it does, then v. 5 means that the Father isn't Lord, nor is he the Spirit according to v. 4. Additionally, we can't take verses in isolation, this is how erroneous beliefs arise.


No, it is the historical, orthodox Christian position that is absolutely core to the faith.


If a person doesn't believe Jesus is God, then don't believe in either the Jesus or the God of the Bible. Yet, as John 17:3 states, one must know both in order to have eternal life.


Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

He didn't say it much at all and when he did, it is typically implied. More than once the Jews correctly understood Jesus's claims to be God, to be equal to the Father, and wanted to stone him for it. Thomas also rightly understood who Jesus was and called Jesus his Lord and his God, without one objection from Jesus, which would have been blasphemous if he hadn't actually been God in human flesh.

I didn't see anything about Jesus being God through the maze of assumptions of interpretation. I think what you have is a framework that you superimpose the Bible over, but it isn't scripture.

How about how Paul said? Isn't it clear that if the One God is not a man and Paul called Jesus a man between God and mankind then Paul doesn't believe Jesus is God? Bear in mind, this was written decades after Jesus ascended to heaven. Paul called Jesus a man. Do you call God a man?


1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
 
I didn't see anything about Jesus being God through the maze of assumptions of interpretation. I think what you have is a framework that you superimpose the Bible over, but it isn't scripture.
One should notice that there were very few, if any assumptions. I am simply reasoning from the Scriptures. It's worth noting that you aren't even trying to address any of it but simply dismissing it. As such, it's only your opinion that what I've presented isn't Scripture; the onus is on you to actually show that it isn't.

The context of John 17:3 shows that it cannot mean that only the Father is God.

The logic of 1 Cor 8:6 is such that 1) if only the Father is God, then only the Son is Lord, contrary to other passages, and 2) the Son had absolute preexistence the same as that of the Father.

These are the types of things you need to address.

How about how Paul said?
Paul says lots of things. I addressed one thing which Paul said in 1 Cor 8:6, if you care to provide a rebuttal.

Isn't it clear that if the One God is not a man and Paul called Jesus a man between God and mankind then Paul doesn't believe Jesus is God? Bear in mind, this was written decades after Jesus ascended to heaven. Paul called Jesus a man. Do you call God a man?


1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
You're proof-texting and this will get you into trouble ten times out of ten. Paul says here that Jesus is a man, which he was, but elsewhere, as I've pointed out, Paul strongly implies that Jesus is also God. The only reason that Jesus is the mediator between God and man is that he is both God and man (Phil 2:5-8). That was rather the whole point of God coming in human flesh.

As I have pointed before, the main anti-Trinitarian problem is that they continually take things piecemeal, which inevitably means they are divorcing them from the context. Everything must be taken together, not one at a time.
 
Like the disciples who didn't understand Jesus and deserted him, you are also misunderstanding him. The remaining disciples went on to say Jesus is the Holy One of God, not that Jesus is God.

John 6
67So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?”
68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.
I think you have a very limited knowledge of the Bible. That would account for your lack of understanding.

God said in the OT that HE is the Holy One of God. So when you admit that John in the NT refers to Jesus as the Holy One of God, you are admitting that there is Scripture that calls Jesus God.
 
No thanks. It seems you're only trying to attack and dismantle the clear scripture about the Father being the only true God according to John 17:3.
You are making a textbook rookie mistake when debating Scripture. You are taking ONE cherry-picked verse from the Bible and building an entire doctrine around it.

That's not even what John 17:3 means at all. It 100% does not mean that Christ is not God. It would be silly for Christ to reveal Himself as God many times, many ways and then declare that He is not God.
 
Are posts being deleted from this thread?

I saw a couple posts a couple hours ago that I was anxious to reply to and now they're gone.

Post #442 was one of them. #444 is also missing.

I know it's not unheard of, but just wondered what I missed.
 
I think it's very clear and scriptural that since Jesus is the Son of God then he isn't God. The Bible gives us the best possible words to describe the relation between himself and his Father. Jesus is God's offspring, therefore he isn't his own offspring. Logic and reason begins to break down quickly following that rabbit trail.
Another thing you've glossed over is answering my question about how Jesus is a mortal man without having a mortal father.

He only had His mother's human egg during conception.

How does that happen?
 
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