Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptures,

I do not think I have misread both the title of your thread and what you are seeking to prove, as the conclusion of your OP is stating that the "Lord" of verse 1 is "a Person Who is Himself Almighty God", "The Messiah in this Psalm ... is Yahweh", "that He is the LORD at the right hand of Yahweh, and is Himself Yahweh".


Kind regards
Trevor

Do you admit that the Bible uses "’āḏōn" many times for the Father?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptures,

Do you admit that the Bible uses "’āḏōn" many times for the Father?

Btw I edited my previous Post to emphasise how much you have stated your theme in the last two paragraphs of your OP of your "Yahweh said to Yahweh" thread. Do you admit that you are trying to replace "Adon" with "Yahweh" in Psalm 110:1 both in the title and in your concluding two paragraphs? Signing out, 11pm here in Australia. No longer interested in your sleight of hand.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Can you provide just ONE verse in the Old Testament, where God is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ?

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

You think Jesus is confused?

and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Not only His Father but His GOD.

In regard to the new Jerusalem - From whom?

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

From the will of another at a point in time before the world began
Col 1:19 =>"was pleased"

 

[SolaScriptura]

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

You think Jesus is confused?

and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Not only His Father but His GOD.

In regard to the new Jerusalem - From whom?

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

From the will of another at a point in time before the world began
Col 1:19 =>"was pleased"

Jesus as the Son is only from His Incarnation, not prior to this time

 

[Randy]

Jesus as the Son is only from His Incarnation, not prior to this time

He still refers to the one on the throne in heaven as His God and Father.
If He always was and always was God how did He become the Son?

Psalm 40:6-8

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

Sacrifice and offering you do not desire,
but you have given me an open ear.
Burnt-offering and sin-offering
you have not required.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am;
in the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart.’

 

[donadams]

Can you provide just ONE verse in the Old Testament, where God is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ?

Gen 1:1 in the beginning, God…

So before the creation only God existed.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus existed before the world began so He must be Divine!

Rather than violate the “golden rule”

Let us examine ourselves and see if our motive is the virtues of Jesus Christ, humility, meekness & charity
Matt 11:29 or the vices of the enemy, pride, presumption, and arrogance.

The holy apostolic church founded by Christ on Peter, and the apostles has the authority to bind the consciences of all Christians to believe the truths revealed by Christ and found in the creeds, dogma’s and decree’s of apostolic councils!
Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21-23

Thanks

 

[Vinny37]

do you believe that Jesus Christ is Eternally YHWH, in the Godhead? I don't mean His "human nature", after The Incranation

No, I do not.

Yahweh has never slept; Jesus has. Yahweh has always fully known; Jesus has not. There was never a time when Yahweh was not; there was a time when Jesus was not. God the son has never slept, and has always fully known; there was never a time when he was not. As I have said, we should differentiate between God the son noncarnate, and God the son incarnate, and not read back the name Jesus beyond space-time.

 

[SolaScriptura]

No, I do not.

Yahweh has never slept; Jesus has. Yahweh has always fully known; Jesus has not. There was never a time when Yahweh was not; there was a time when Jesus was not. God the son has never slept, and has always fully known; there was never a time when he was not. As I have said, we should differentiate between God the son noncarnate, and God the son incarnate, and not read back the name Jesus beyond space-time.

The Gospels record the Coming of Jesus Christ, as the Coming of Yahweh

Matthew 3:3, etc

"For this is he who was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness, make the way of the Lord ready! Make his paths straight!”

From Isaiah 40:3

"The voice of one who calls out, “Prepare the way of Yahweh in the wilderness! Make a level highway in the desert for our God"

Peter in his first sermon, tells his hearers:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21)

From Joel 2:32

"Then everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved"

Paul says the same in Romans 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10:9, according to the best textual evidence;

"We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents"

From Numbers 21:6

"Yahweh sent venomous snakes among the people, and they bit the people. Many people of Israel died"

Again, Paul says in Philippians 2:10-11;

"that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

From Isaiah 45:23-24

"I have sworn by myself. The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and will not be revoked, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.They will say of me, ‘There is righteousness and strength only in Yahweh.’” Even to him will men come. All those who raged against him will be disappointed"

Jesus says of Himself in Matthew 11:10;

"For this is he of whom it is written: ‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You"

From Malachi 3:1;

"Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me! The Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple. Behold, the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, is coming!” says Yahweh of Armies"

In the quotations in the New Testament, Jesus has changed, “before Me (לְפָנָי, μου)”, to, “before thee (σου)”. By doing this, Jesus here is the Speaker of Malachi 3:1, Who is speaking about His own Coming, as Yahweh. The “'âdôn” in this verse is the equivalent as “Yahweh”, yet distinct from Him. Jesus here makes John the Baptist to be the one who went “before Him”, to “prepare His Way”. Jesus here clearly identifies Himself as Yahweh, and asserts His own Deity as the God of the Old Testament.

Clear Bible evidence that Jesus Christ IS YHWH, The Great I AM, Almighty God. 100% COEQUAL with God the Father

 

[Vinny37]

The Gospels record the Coming of Jesus Christ, as the Coming of Yahweh

First I commend the way that you, as do I, replace [the LORD] from the Bible versions which you cite, with God's name, in the OT.

As to, [The Gospels record the Coming of Jesus Christ, as the Coming of Yahweh], fine, but the scripts do not teach that the mode of God the son pre-existed the incarnation, yet alone exists beyond space-time, which I think is the Q.

That there is a very real sense in which Yahweh-predictions were capable of fulfilment as kurion-predictions, I too teach. Jesus is kurion; there is more to kurion than Jesus. I am human; there is more to humanity than me. Jesus is the permanent temporal mode of the eternal uncreated second person of deity. There is more to Yahweh than Jesus.

As you have rightly said, biblically the son is not begotten, though by the main biblical picture as the first person being his father, unlike you I hold to the son as generated (as an image is generated not begotten), and since not in space-time, eternally generate—philosophically one must avoid time terms, such as generated.

It can help to see possible gradation of meaning. Eg, on Heb.1:8, one can see that the writer took a multiplex approach, knowing about hidden messianic upgrades: mere human monarchs could be called elohim. Likewise, Is.7:14 would first be a mere mortal representing Yahweh, yet subsequent fulfilment would be by a more than a mere mortal representing God (Mt.1:23), even as the mother was upgraded from merely a young betrothed woman in Ahaz’ days, to a virgin conception by a betrothed woman in Matthew’s days.

Yahweh has stepped in in the person of Jesus, the C1 incarnation of Yahweh the son. Jesus was the stream from the eternal son, his source; the eternal son is a stream from the eternal father, his source. The logos became in time-space mode, Jesus. Thus Jesus had a deity-link, and could functionally represent the trinity ontologically: operari sequitur esse.

 

[Hopeful 2]

there are some who teach that the Father has "generated" the Son eternally as to His Divine Being in the Godhead. This is known as "eternal generation".

That does sound kind of fishy.
The Word always was and always will be...though now as Jesus Christ.
The Word was not Jesus before He took on flesh and was born of Mary.

Some of the "Creeds" of the early Church include this, which is 100% UNBIBLICAL

As for the "generated" part, it is written..."And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
And..."But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." (Matt 1:20)
If the "some" you cited above had just used the word "conceived" instead of "generated", there would be no problem.
It is just another case of men trying to show how smart they are.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Greek in Matthew 1:20, is γεννηθὲν, which is the same word used in verses 2-16, "Abraham begat Isaac", etc. which has the meaning, "to bring forth, to bear". It does not really matter what the KJV uses in their margin reading.

The word for Jesus Christ, in verses like, John 1:14, where the KJV reads, "only begotten", is the Greek, μονογενής, which means, "one of a kind, unique"

On Psalm 110:1, I have dealt with this in much detail, https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-110-1-yahweh-said-to-yahweh.101822/

Looks like the translator got stuck on the "only" at the expense of the "begotten'.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptures,

Btw I edited my previous Post to emphasise how much you have stated your theme in the last two paragraphs of your OP of your "Yahweh said to Yahweh" thread. Do you admit that you are trying to replace "Adon" with "Yahweh" in Psalm 110:1 both in the title and in your concluding two paragraphs? Signing out, 11pm here in Australia. No longer interested in your sleight of hand.

Kind regards
Trevor

You accuse me of "sleight of hand"!

What I have presented is what the FACTS are. It is a JEWISH, not, CHRISTIAN Hebrew manuscript, that was known to Adam Clarke, that reads in Psalm 110:1, "Yahweh said to Yahweh".

In verse 5, the SAME "’āḏōn", in verse 1, is at the "Right Hand", Who is here called "Yahweh", in at least 20 JEWISH Hebrew manuscripts! "Yahweh at Your Right Hand". This has led some to say that the Father and Son switched places! No doubt to suit their cunning "theology"! In fact, the reading in most of the Hebrew manuscripts in verse 5, is not the same word for "Lord", as in verse 1, but, “’ăḏōnāy”, which is used 99% of the time in the Hebrew Old Testament, for Yahweh! The reading as in the 20 JEWISH Hebrew manuscripts, which is probably correct, would then have verse 1 read, "Yahweh said to Yahweh". With the accepted reading of verse 5 in the majority of Versions, verse 1 could indeed read, "Yahweh said to ’ăḏōnāy”

These are the FACTS, as they are!

 

[donadams]

Heb 1:6 worship
Matt 2:11 worshipped him
Matt 4:10 worship
Matt 8:2 worshipped
Matt 9:18 worshipped
Matt 14:33 worshipped
Matt 15:25 worshipped
John 9:38 worshipped

Thanks

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe "the only legitimate child" or "the only rightful heir" is better? That's the case for Isaac, Ishmael before him by Hagar and other children by Kenturah after him don't get to receive the inheritance.

Begotten doesn't mean either only legitimate child or only rightful heir...
even though both are right.

Jesus is the SON....
Joseph was not His father, God is His father,
so in that sense it's correct to say the only child.

Except that Jesus, as the second Person of the Trinity ALWAYS existed, as the second Person He was never born but was always a part of God.

Begotten just means the only unique one.
Jesus was unique...there never was nor ever will be another being like Him.
Fully man, fully divine.

I really don't know of a really good word...
But begotten confuses many. It sounds like Jesus as the 2nd Person was made 2,000 years ago.

 

[donadams]

Christ in the Old Testament:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Begotten doesn't mean either only legitimate child or only rightful heir...
even though both are right.

Jesus is the SON....
Joseph was not His father, God is His father,
so in that sense it's correct to say the only child.

Except that Jesus, as the second Person of the Trinity ALWAYS existed, as the second Person He was never born but was always a part of God.

Begotten just means the only unique one.
Jesus was unique...there never was nor ever will be another being like Him.
Fully man, fully divine.

I really don't know of a really good word...
But begotten confuses many. It sounds like Jesus as the 2nd Person was made 2,000 years ago.

Yes, begotten is archaic. The key word is mono - ONLY. Unique. Jesus is the only true manifestation of God in the likeness of man. He was conceived through virgin Mary, not made or created.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus as the Son is only from His Incarnation, not prior to this time

Jesus is THE promised prophet like Moses. Any mention of prophet such as "are you the Prophet" is a reference to Deut. 18:15 - "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear."

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus is THE promised prophet like Moses. Any mention of prophet such as "are you the Prophet" is a reference to Deut. 18:15 - "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear."

Jesus Christ, existed as Yahweh, Elohim, Mighty God, Messenger of Yahweh/Elohim, The Word, The Prophet, The Saviour; before His human Birth through the Virgin Mary. His "Sonship" actually began at this time, The Incarnation, and not in the Old Testament, or before.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus Christ, existed as Yahweh, Elohim, Mighty God, Messenger of Yahweh/Elohim, The Word, The Prophet, The Saviour; before His human Birth through the Virgin Mary. His "Sonship" actually began at this time, The Incarnation, and not in the Old Testament, or before.

Nonethelss, the father wasn't birthed through the Virgin Mary, the son was. It is written:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (Jn. 4:1-5)

Please note that it didn't say that every spirit that denies the deity of Jesus, denies Jesus was at the beginning, denies Jesus being the Prophet, denies Jesus being the only way, denies Jesus's resurrection is of the Antichrist. The dividing line distinguishes the Holy Spirit from evil spirits is the confession of the incarnation, that is, Jn. 1:14 - and the word became flesh and dwelt among us."

 

[SolaScriptura]

Nonethelss, the father wasn't birthed through the Virgin Mary, the son was. It is written:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (Jn. 4:1-5)

Please note that it didn't say that every spirit that denies the deity of Jesus, denies Jesus was at the beginning, denies Jesus being the Prophet, denies Jesus being the only way, denies Jesus's resurrection is of the Antichrist. The dividing line distinguishes the Holy Spirit from evil spirits is the confession of the incarnation, that is, Jn. 1:14 - and the word became flesh and dwelt among us."

did I ever even hint that God the Father became flesh?