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Unique, Not Only-Begotten

I would state if one calls another their God and Father then to them that other is the greater.

I do state all the fullness of God dwells in the Son and He is all that the Father is. Col 1:19
 
If you are Protestant and believe the five solas but do not believe the trinity / divinity of Christ then you are violating one of your precious solas!

Glory to god alone!

Scripture has it, Christ received glory:

Lk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Jn 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If you don’t believe your own doctrines, how are you ever going to believe the truth?


Is Jesus Lord?

Yes then He must be divine!

If Jesus is Lord by not God then there would be two Lords!

Mystery of the trinity!
(The nature or essence of God is incomprehensible to man)

The father is Lord.
The son is Lord.
The Spirit is Lord.
But there are not three Lords, only one Lord! Deut 6:4

Thanks
 
Randy said:
I would state if one calls another their God and Father then to them that other is the greater.

I do state all the fullness of God dwells in the Son and He is all that the Father is. Col 1:19
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Except that the Greek does not say what you have quoted

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

Because in Him (Jesus Christ) well pleased all the fullness to dwell"

There is no "Father" in the Greek, which is why Versions like the KJV, use italics, "the Father"

What Paul here means, is clear from 2:9

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς"

"because in Him dwells the fullness of the Deity Bodily”

On Paul’s use of “θεοτητος”, the Unitarian Greek scholar, Joseph Thayer, in his lexicon says, “deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9”

This, of course means, that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. YHWH
 
Scripture says only begotten!

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the onlybegotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
Greetings again SolaScriptures,
SolaScriptura said:
You accuse me of "sleight of hand"!
Click to expand...
Yes, in my almost 20 years on forums I have never seen such a concerted effort to change the Hebrew text, here mainly from Adon to Yahweh. I suspect that you consider that the simple plain teaching of Psalm 110:1 is contrary to the Trinitarian teaching and hence you see the need to change the text. What is interesting is that most Trinitarians consider that Adon is acceptable.
SolaScriptura said:
The reading as in the 20 JEWISH Hebrew manuscripts, which is probably correct, would then have verse 1 read, "Yahweh said to Yahweh". With the accepted reading of verse 5 in the majority of Versions, verse 1 could indeed read, "Yahweh said to ’ăḏōnāy”
Click to expand...
Here is a further elaboration of the same attempt to change Adon to Yahweh, "Yahweh said to adonay". You seem to misunderstand Psalm 110:5 also. In your other thread I quoted Derek Kidner who is a Trinitarian, and he seems to understand Psalm 110:5 correctly.
TrevorL said:
Consider the following comments and Note 16 from Derek Kidner (who is a Trinitarian):
Now the Lord (i.e. Yahweh) and his King act as one (see Note 16), and the army of volunteers which was seen in verse 3 is no longer in the picture. The battle is the Lord’s, yet he and his King are so united that by verse 7 it is clearly the human partner who is in the foreground. 1

Note 16: There is no need to seek consistency between Yahweh’s ‘right hand’ in verse 1 and the King’s in verse 5. The scene has changed from throne to battlefield, to present this new aspect of the partnership. 1

1 Kidner, D. (1975). Psalms 73–150: An Introduction and Commentary IVP.
Click to expand...

Kind regards
Trevor
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings again SolaScriptures,

Yes, in my almost 20 years on forums I have never seen such a concerted effort to change the Hebrew text, here mainly from Adon to Yahweh. I suspect that you consider that the simple plain teaching of Psalm 110:1 is contrary to the Trinitarian teaching and hence you see the need to change the text. What is interesting is that most Trinitarians consider that Adon is acceptable.

Here is a further elaboration of the same attempt to change Adon to Yahweh, "Yahweh said to adonay". You seem to misunderstand Psalm 110:5 also. In your other thread I quoted Derek Kidner who is a Trinitarian, and he seems to understand Psalm 110:5 correctly.


Kind regards
Trevor
Click to expand...

I am changing NOTHING!

I have presented what the HEBREW manuscripts have, in verse 1 and verse 5. But, because you are totally against ANY Bible passage that very clearly says, that Jesus Christ IS YHWH, Almighty God, you always try to distract from the FACTS, by presenting your strawman arguments!

I have shown MANY passages, where the Hebrew root, “’āḏōn”, is indeed used for Yahweh, whether the Father or Son. Here are just some such passages.

Exodus 23:17, “Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord (’āḏōn) God (yehôvâh)”

Exodus 34:23, “Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord (’āḏōn) God (yehôvâh), the God ('ĕlôhı̂ym) of Israel”

Deuteronomy 10:17, “For the LORD (yehôvâh) your God ('ĕlôhı̂ym), he is God of gods and Lord of lords (’ăḏōn, ’ăḏōn), the Great (gâdôl) God (’ēl), the Mighty (hagibōr), and the Awesome (yârê'), who doesn’t respect persons or take bribes”

Joshua 3:11, 13, “Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord (’ăḏōn) of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan...And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD (yehôvâh), the Lord (’ăḏōn) of all the earth”

Nehemiah 8:10, “for this day is holy to our Lord (’ăḏōn). And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength”

Nehemiah 10:29, “do all the commandments of the LORD (yehôvâh) our Lord (’ăḏōn) and His rules and His statutes”

Can you not see here, that “’āḏōn”, which is used for Jesus Christ in Psalm 110:1, is clearly used for Yahweh?

You ignore the FACT, that it is a HEBREW manuscript, as copied by JEWS, that reads in Psalm 110:1, "Yahweh said to Yahweh", which does show there is corruption by the JEWISH copyists, over the years.

You also ignore the FACT, that in verse 5, the SAME LORD Who is at the Right Hand of Yahweh, in verse 1, is in this verse called, "’ăḏōnāy", which is 99.9% used only for Yahweh. Also the FACT, that in at least 20 JEWISH Hebrew manuscripts, in verse 5, do not read, "’ăḏōnāy", but "Yahweh". Again showing corruption by the Jewish copyists.

These are the FACTS, which you keep on ignoring!
 
SolaScriptura said:
Jesus Christ, existed as Yahweh, Elohim, Mighty God, Messenger of Yahweh/Elohim, The Word, The Prophet, The Saviour; before His human Birth through the Virgin Mary. His "Sonship" actually began at this time, The Incarnation, and not in the Old Testament, or before.
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot you have said in our posts on this thread. Here is a point we reverse.

You: Jesus the anointed became God’s son.

Me: God’s eternal son became the temporal Jesus the anointed [Stream from source; eternity into time].

1# Do you avoid ontological subordinationism but accept functional subordinationism, while keeping Adoptionism at bay by incarnation?
2# And in your framework, if Yeshua is the christ beyond space-time, who anoints him beyond space-time, and why? Anointing in time I get; anointing beyond time beats me to a frazzle.
3# BTW do you accept that Yahweh, as trinity, exists beyond time-space (which he created) and has posited himself within time-space? Ie, do you believe in his universal transcendence and his universal immanence? I'm guessing that you do.
 
SolaScriptura said:
some people are too interested in what "translations" say, and ignore the Original languages, the Bible is Written in. Mainly because of their theological bias.
Click to expand...
The point is to have these three myths debunked based on a misunderstanding of 2 Timothy 3:16-17:

First, the Scripture is sufficient but NOT exhaustive, that's clearly indicated in the last line of the gospel of John - "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen." What's recorded in the four canonical gospels is only a small portion of the Lord's words and deeds during his three and a half year ministry, there's more to discover, reading the bible is just scratching the surface. A good example is this motto about generosity in Acts 20:35 - "ye ought to support the weak and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.”" This particular line is nowhere to be found in the four gospels, not even in the noncanonical gospels such as Thomas, that doesn't mean Paul made it up. Maybe this is one of the "many other things."

Second, the Scripture is the inerrant word of God, but not every English translation, not even KJV, and many modern translations are adulterated. The more you study the original text, the more inaccuracies and errors you'll find. You did a fantastic job on this.

Third, there's a sect of Christianity that believes the Scripture is the finality of God's revelation to mankind, since no new book should be added, there's no new revelations from God either. They idolize the bible and deny any report of supernatural intercession, miracle or phenomenon that should be otherwise perceived as a move of the Holy Spirit, for example, the Asbury revival in Kentucky University or many muslims dreaming about Jesus. These are immediately denounced and attributed to the devil, that's the exact same attitude of the Pharisees who called Jesus Beelzebub, and that is an unforgivable sin.
 
SolaScriptura said:
For those who doubt the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and His coequality with the Father, this one verse should remove any doubts. Jesus says that He had the SAME Glory that the Father has, which they have JOINTLY, since Eternity past! No one who is not Himself YHWH, can ever utter these words.
Click to expand...

Amen! :salute
 
Greetings again SolaScriptures and Greetings JLB,
SolaScriptura said:
This is eternity past, as seen in the words of Jesus in John 17:5, “Now, Father, Glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed”. For those who doubt the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and His coequality with the Father, this one verse should remove any doubts. Jesus says that He had the SAME Glory that the Father has, which they have JOINTLY, since Eternity past! No one who is not Himself YHWH, can ever utter these words.
Click to expand...

JLB said:
Amen! :salute
Click to expand...
Jesus is David's Lord who has been invited to sit at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, in God the Father's Throne. I suggest that the glory that Jesus speaks about is the glory that was in anticipation mentioned in the following:
Psalm 8:1,3–5 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Notice that this is written in the past tense as if it is already accomplished when David penned the Psalm, and similar to John 17:5 it is set in the context of the Creation. God foresaw that Jesus a man of His Creation, made a little lower than the Angels, would suffer and die, but then be resurrected, honoured and glorified.

Jesus also alludes to the same theme in the following, and the One God, Yahweh, God the Father reassures Jesus that Jesus would face the coming trials and endure them and would be exalted to the right hand of God, exalted, vindicated and glorified.
John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
SolaScriptura said:
Except that the Greek does not say what you have quoted

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

Because in Him (Jesus Christ) well pleased all the fullness to dwell"

There is no "Father" in the Greek, which is why Versions like the KJV, use italics, "the Father"

What Paul here means, is clear from 2:9

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς"

"because in Him dwells the fullness of the Deity Bodily”

On Paul’s use of “θεοτητος”, the Unitarian Greek scholar, Joseph Thayer, in his lexicon says, “deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9”

This, of course means, that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. YHWH
Click to expand...
That because its so greatly implied it was added by translators giving the meaning as priority. Not added by me
Why would Jesus not be that fullness? Rather than having that fullness gifted by the will of another to dwell "in Him"?
Who is the Him apart from that fullness? Gods Firstborn - A begotten Son
So one can acknowledge the nature found in the Son. (all the fullness of God) and still know the Father alone is the only true God as Jesus Himself declared. And that same God exalted His Son to "Lord" of all.

(was pleased) as stated from the will of another. That other is shown clearly in Col 1:20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
 
Randy said:
That because its so greatly implied it was added by translators giving the meaning as priority. Not added by me
Why would Jesus not be that fullness? Rather than having that fullness gifted by the will of another to dwell "in Him"?
Who is the Him apart from that fullness? Gods Firstborn - A begotten Son
So one can acknowledge the nature found in the Son. (all the fullness of God) and still know the Father alone is the only true God as Jesus Himself declared. And that same God exalted His Son to "Lord" of all.

(was pleased) as stated from the will of another. That other is shown clearly in Col 1:20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Click to expand...

You forgot Colossians 2.9
 
SolaScriptura said:
You forgot Colossians 2.9
Click to expand...
I didn't forget anything. Lives in vs being that Deity as is the Father. Who is Him that the Deity lives in? God's Firstborn as one who was begotten from the Father alone before all things.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Father is that Deity as in the eternal life found in His Son. As shown gifted by the will of another at a point in time. Col 1:19

John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
The Father living in Him doing "His" work. They are "one".

John 14:10
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
 
Randy said:
I didn't forget anything. Lives in vs being that Deity as is the Father. Who is Him that the Deity lives in? God's Firstborn as one who was begotten from the Father alone before all things.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Father is that Deity as in the eternal life found in His Son. As shown gifted by the will of another at a point in time. Col 1:19

John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
The Father living in Him doing "His" work. They are "one".

John 14:10
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Click to expand...

Now you are getting into heresy
 
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