Unveiling the Truth: The Bible's Second Chance for Salvation

[dwb001]

Rom 5:12

Nothing in Romans 5:12 about Adam being immortal.

Exactly! You got it.

Yeah. So why ask?
What was the point of the question?

 

[Highway54]

Those saved by grace in this life are not being judged in Rev. 20:14, just the opposite. They are Christ's kings and priests who ruled with Christ during the Millennial Kingdom:


4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:4-6 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4 NKJ)

Those saved by grace in this life are not being judged in Rev. 20:14, just the opposite.

Here is where the problem lies Alfred, we view the term saved differently. You used the term saved in this life, but I say that is not the case for most all Christians sir.

Do you know what Saved means sir? Please do not say yes and that is all, give me your understanding of what the term means Alfred?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here is where the problem lies Alfred, we view the term saved differently. You used the term saved in this life, but I say that is not the case for most all Christians sir.

Do you know what Saved means sir? Please do not say yes and that is all, give me your understanding of what the term means Alfred?

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved (4982 σῴζω sozo)),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Eph. 2:4-6 NKJ)

The verb “have been saved” is in the perfect tense which expresses the present permanent state as a result of a past action. Because believers have been “made alive” spiritually with Christ, they have been and are saved.-Hoehner, H. W. (1985). Ephesians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, p. 623). Victor Books.

That is what Christ taught, when we believe we are born from above, pass over from death into life and therefore do not come under krisis judgment:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, when we read its appointed for people to die and then be "krisis" judgment, it isn't talking about Christians:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Christians have been saved, have passed from death into life.

Hebrews is talking about the unsaved who die. After the judgment some of them eagerly wait in hell for Christ to appear to save them = they got a second chance to believe, and took it.

So, although "saved" is used to mean save physically in some texts, its clear in these its talking about spiritual salvation.

 

[Highway54]

Nothing in Romans 5:12 about Adam being immortal.

Yeah. So why ask?
What was the point of the question?

Nothing in Romans 5:12 about Adam being immortal.

Nor did I, clearly he was not immortal or he would still be here. According to that passage however, death did come through him, he was created to live forever, unless of course God is a liar. He told him point blank he would die if he ate from that one tree of the garden.

Interestingly the Bible only states that Jesus and the 144k are immortal. I don't understand it, but that is stated.

 

[dwb001]

Nor did I, clearly he was not immortal or he would still be here. According to that passage however, death did come through him, he was created to live forever, unless of course God is a liar. He told him point blank he would die if he ate from that one tree of the garden.

Where are you getting these opinions?
Provide your source verses.
And even then I don't disagree... but you sound like you are making a point... I don't see it anywhere though.

Interestingly the Bible only states that Jesus and the 144k are immortal. I don't understand it, but that is stated.

Where does it state that?
So you don't think Jesus died?

 

[Highway54]

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved (4982 σῴζω sozo)),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Eph. 2:4-6 NKJ)

The verb “have been saved” is in the perfect tense which expresses the present permanent state as a result of a past action. Because believers have been “made alive” spiritually with Christ, they have been and are saved.-Hoehner, H. W. (1985). Ephesians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, p. 623). Victor Books.

That is what Christ taught, when we believe we are born from above, pass over from death into life and therefore do not come under krisis judgment:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, when we read its appointed for people to die and then be "krisis" judgment, it isn't talking about Christians:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Christians have been saved, have passed from death into life.

Hebrews is talking about the unsaved who die. After the judgment some of them eagerly wait in hell for Christ to appear to save them = they got a second chance to believe, and took it.

So, although "saved" is used to mean save physically in some texts, its clear in these its talking about spiritual salvation.

Yes sir there are of course different usages for the term, but I think we understood each other as what we were referring to. We teach very differently, you believe we can be saved now, we don't. You spoke of those who have been made alive spiritually with Christ, but even they can lose out Heb 6:4-6 is one example of that.

One is saved, which is the shortened form of Salvation when they receive the gift of everlasting life Alfred. For the anointed Christians they receive it when they get to heaven, and for the rest of us at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:5

Thank you very much for your response sir.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes sir there are of course different usages for the term, but I think we understood each other as what we were referring to. We teach very differently, you believe we can be saved now, we don't. You spoke of those who have been made alive spiritually with Christ, but even they can lose out Heb 6:4-6 is one example of that.

One is saved, which is the shortened form of Salvation when they receive the gift of everlasting life Alfred. For the anointed Christians they receive it when they get to heaven, and for the rest of us at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:5

Thank you very much for your response sir.

Who are the "we"? Except for some elements of my eschatology, you could classify me as Reformed Free Will Baptist.

You are right about me, I believe in the "eternal security" of the believer, BUT we should NOT live as though we cannot lose our salvation.

The text you cited proves that position.

The writer in Hebrews 6:9 in effect says "while you who are saved cannot really lose your salvation, we speak in this manner, so you strive to holy living":

Notice it does not say the "once enlightened" were "saved", they only "tasted" the heavenly gift----They did not drink Christ's blood or eat His flesh to have life in them eternally (John 6:53-58).

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. (Heb. 6:4-9 NKJ)

They "tasted the heavenly gift...the good word of God and powers of the age to come" rejoicing in the miracles they saw performed by Christ's apostles, but never became Christians. Then after a time, they fall away returning to their old life. Its impossible they once again be excited by the things that no longer enthralled them.

Believers pass over from death into eternal life "when they believe", that is what our LORD Jesus said:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

The first group of "dead" judged in Revelation 20:11-15 are those who lived during Christ's millennial kingdom but somehow were not "born again". Then Death and Hades are emptied out and all the dead in them are raised up to be judged.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Those who became Christians during their life are NOT among them, they are already with Christ (1 Thess. 4:14-18) having been raised in the first resurrection with all the Christian dead, they do not appear in this judgment but have passed from death into life already (John 5:24):

Those who believe in Christ during this life are not judged in Revelation 20:11-15, they have passed from death into eternal life while alive, and reign as Kings and priests in Christ's Millennial Kingdom (Rev. 1:6; 5:10).

Although Revelation 20:4-6 highlights Martyrs, all Christians are "martyrs" in a sense, they all "died and rose again" in Christ during this life, which is what Baptism symbolizes. In this sense ALL believers are Martyrs, they died and became alive again in Christ:

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (Col. 2:12-13 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph. 2:4-8 NKJ)

Christians are eternally saved in this life, by grace through their belief in Jesus, just like our LORD said. It is not "of ourselves through our works" which is what is judged on Judgement Day. From that group, by God's grace, He writes their names into the Book of life and then they too are saved by grace, for by works will no man be justified. But God will by no means allow those who worked evil, not be punished.

Some believers don't realize God can add names to the book of life, because they believe only two classes of people exist. Those who are children of God and those who are children of the devil. But the Bible indicates there is a third group who reveal who they are in the fallen realm. Their names can be added to, or blotted out from the book of life:

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

The promise is a fraud if the name cannot be blotted out from the Book of Life.

This is not spoken to the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out. Elected before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11) their names were written "before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; Eph. 1:4). As they are predestined unto salvation (Rom. 8:29) they overcome.


Therefore, names can exist in the Book of life that are not "Elect", the "undetermined" could be written in or blotted out.

They have free will choice and equal chance to be saved with the Elect. For example, the names of the wicked men chasing David potentially could be written in the book of life. David asks God blot their names out so that doesn't happen:

May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NAS)


An Aramaic Psalms Targum explains how some ancients understood this verse:

Give iniquity for their iniquity, and let them not be purified to enter the assembly of your righteous ones. (Ps. 69:28 PST)

The Book of Life has the names of the Elect and potentially the undetermined (who could choose to go either way). That is why there are multiple books opened on Judgment Day, not just one (Rev. 20:12)

The latter are judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13), and God determines if He will save them by
Grace, "have mercy upon whom He will have mercy", so their names then appear in the book of life.

God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ).

If the "undetermined" do what is right, their names won't be blotted out from the Book of Life.

That's why Christ warned against committing "eternal sins" which God will NOT forgive:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

And now you change the wording.
You don't see the shift, but it is there.
My question what to you stringing two unrelated passages together and now you only present one passage.
And the verse you do quote is more nuanced then you appear to see.

The verse does not say that believers will not be judged.
I know you wont agree with that but it still remains true. Rev 20:11-15.
KRISIS also can be damnation or accusation or condemnation. And instead of using the fullest meaning of the word... you are reading it in the most legalistic way possible.

What wording did I change?
What shift? Show me.
Unrelated? Both speak of "krisis" judgment.

I agree both are packed with meaning, but they connect precisely on the subject of who goes through a "krisis" judgment.

This does say their having eternal life is not dependent upon a future judgment because they already passed into life:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Rev 20:11-15 is a judgment of those who went through the Millennial Kingdom but didn't get saved, then the dead in Death, Hades and the Sea. No Christians among them.

As for Krisis, I'm reading it just as your definition allows.

 

[dwb001]

What wording did I change?
What shift? Show me.

I did in my post... Just read it.

Unrelated? Both speak of "krisis" judgment.

Same word... different author, audience, context, time.

I agree both are packed with meaning, but they connect precisely on the subject of who goes through a "krisis" judgment.

Maybe not. I am not a Greek scholar and even they don't agree.

This does say their having eternal life is not dependent upon a future judgment because they already passed into life:

If the judge says he will rule in your favour... you still have to go through the trial.
The verdict is not rendered until the gavel is dropped.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Right... the Judge will grant you clemency... but not until you enter into His court.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I did in my post... Just read it.

Same word... different author, audience, context, time.

Maybe not. I am not a Greek scholar and even they don't agree.

If the judge says he will rule in your favour... you still have to go through the trial.
The verdict is not rendered until the gavel is dropped.

Right... the Judge will grant you clemency... but not until you enter into His court.

Can't figure out which "post". Why not copy paste it? Likely because it "DIDN'T".

Same type of judgment, about the same people.

Scholars are given way too much trust, many are unbelievers making a living writing Bible commentary.

If the King rules "you don't need a trial, the gavel has already dropped."

 

[dwb001]

Can't figure out which "post". Why not copy paste it? Likely because it "DIDN'T".

Post 15 I believe.

Same type of judgment, about the same people.

Scholars are given way too much trust, many are unbelievers making a living writing Bible commentary.

I don't use commentaries.

If the King rules "you don't need a trial, the gavel has already dropped."

No the gavel has not dropped... because that is the last thing that happens... are you still breathing... gavel has not dropped.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Post 15 I believe.

I don't use commentaries.

No the gavel has not dropped... because that is the last thing that happens... are you still breathing... gavel has not dropped.

My post #28 already rebutted your #15, and "it didn't".

Christ is the Judge and He says the gavel has dropped for believers, they will not come under krisis judgment (John 5:24)

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. (Jn. 5:26-27 KJV)

 

[Highway54]

Where are you getting these opinions?
Provide your source verses.
And even then I don't disagree... but you sound like you are making a point... I don't see it anywhere though.

Where does it state that?
So you don't think Jesus died?

Where does it state that?

(1 Peter 1:3-5) . . .the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time.

So you don't think Jesus died?

(1 Peter 1:3 . . .the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

 

[Highway54]

Who are the "we"? Except for some elements of my eschatology, you could classify me as Reformed Free Will Baptist.

You are right about me, I believe in the "eternal security" of the believer, BUT we should NOT live as though we cannot lose our salvation.

The text you cited proves that position.

The writer in Hebrews 6:9 in effect says "while you who are saved cannot really lose your salvation, we speak in this manner, so you strive to holy living":

Notice it does not say the "once enlightened" were "saved", they only "tasted" the heavenly gift----They did not drink Christ's blood or eat His flesh to have life in them eternally (John 6:53-58).

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. (Heb. 6:4-9 NKJ)

They "tasted the heavenly gift...the good word of God and powers of the age to come" rejoicing in the miracles they saw performed by Christ's apostles, but never became Christians. Then after a time, they fall away returning to their old life. Its impossible they once again be excited by the things that no longer enthralled them.

Believers pass over from death into eternal life "when they believe", that is what our LORD Jesus said:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

The first group of "dead" judged in Revelation 20:11-15 are those who lived during Christ's millennial kingdom but somehow were not "born again". Then Death and Hades are emptied out and all the dead in them are raised up to be judged.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Those who became Christians during their life are NOT among them, they are already with Christ (1 Thess. 4:14-18) having been raised in the first resurrection with all the Christian dead, they do not appear in this judgment but have passed from death into life already (John 5:24):

Those who believe in Christ during this life are not judged in Revelation 20:11-15, they have passed from death into eternal life while alive, and reign as Kings and priests in Christ's Millennial Kingdom (Rev. 1:6; 5:10).

Although Revelation 20:4-6 highlights Martyrs, all Christians are "martyrs" in a sense, they all "died and rose again" in Christ during this life, which is what Baptism symbolizes. In this sense ALL believers are Martyrs, they died and became alive again in Christ:

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (Col. 2:12-13 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph. 2:4-8 NKJ)

Christians are eternally saved in this life, by grace through their belief in Jesus, just like our LORD said. It is not "of ourselves through our works" which is what is judged on Judgement Day. From that group, by God's grace, He writes their names into the Book of life and then they too are saved by grace, for by works will no man be justified. But God will by no means allow those who worked evil, not be punished.

Some believers don't realize God can add names to the book of life, because they believe only two classes of people exist. Those who are children of God and those who are children of the devil. But the Bible indicates there is a third group who reveal who they are in the fallen realm. Their names can be added to, or blotted out from the book of life:

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

The promise is a fraud if the name cannot be blotted out from the Book of Life.

This is not spoken to the Elect whose names cannot be blotted out. Elected before they did good or bad (Rom. 9:11) their names were written "before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; Eph. 1:4). As they are predestined unto salvation (Rom. 8:29) they overcome.


Therefore, names can exist in the Book of life that are not "Elect", the "undetermined" could be written in or blotted out.

They have free will choice and equal chance to be saved with the Elect. For example, the names of the wicked men chasing David potentially could be written in the book of life. David asks God blot their names out so that doesn't happen:

May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous. (Ps. 69:28 NAS)


An Aramaic Psalms Targum explains how some ancients understood this verse:

Give iniquity for their iniquity, and let them not be purified to enter the assembly of your righteous ones. (Ps. 69:28 PST)

The Book of Life has the names of the Elect and potentially the undetermined (who could choose to go either way). That is why there are multiple books opened on Judgment Day, not just one (Rev. 20:12)

The latter are judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13), and God determines if He will save them by
Grace, "have mercy upon whom He will have mercy", so their names then appear in the book of life.

God is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9 NKJ).

If the "undetermined" do what is right, their names won't be blotted out from the Book of Life.

That's why Christ warned against committing "eternal sins" which God will NOT forgive:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)

Who are the "we"?

Those of my faith sir

we should NOT live as though we cannot lose our salvation.

Very true!

Notice it does not say the "once enlightened" were "saved", they only "tasted" the heavenly gift----They did not drink Christ's blood or eat His flesh to have life in them eternally (John 6:53-58)

Actually only the enlightened ones do sir. That is why there is no redemption for them.

No disrespect Alfred, you really go to great lengths to help, but I get lost in the shuffle sir. Please keep it simple with many steps if needed rather than writing a book that I cannot comprehend.

 

[dwb001]

(1 Peter 1:3-5) . . .the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time.

I don't see these verses backing up your position.
Maybe spell it out as to why you think this verse works for your position vs against it.

(1 Peter 1:3 . . .the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

So you changed your story again.
First Jesus and the 144k are immortal.
Then Jesus died.
So where is the proof text that the 144k are immortal.

 

[dwb001]

My post #28 already rebutted your #15, and "it didn't".

Not in my opinion it didn't.

Christ is the Judge and He says the gavel has dropped for believers, they will not come under krisis judgment (John 5:24)

I don't think these verses back your position as well as you think.
Do you have ANY other verses that might back your position?
Or are you hanging everything on two or three verses?

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. (Jn. 5:26-27 KJV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not in my opinion it didn't.

I don't think these verses back your position as well as you think.
Do you have ANY other verses that might back your position?
Or are you hanging everything on two or three verses?

You're playing with us.

You will never admit verses back anyone's position.

Why should anyone produce other verses, only to have you reply: "I don't think these verses back your position"....ad infinitum.

I've enjoyed our discussion, my mind needed a rest.

PS: Two witnesses suffice under the law, therefore "two or three verses" are more than enough proof.

 

[dwb001]

You're playing with us.

You will never admit verses back anyone's position.

I am only trying to correct errors.

Why should anyone produce other verses, only to have you reply: "I don't think these verses back your position"....ad infinitum.

To prove your point.

I've enjoyed our discussion, my mind needed a rest.

PS: Two witnesses suffice under the law, therefore "two or three verses" are more than enough proof.

And you still haven't provided one that truly backs you position.
In fact your position is not even that clear to me.
So maybe flesh it out a bit more with multiple verses.

 

[Consecrated Life]

For me God does not promise for heaven what He has not given clear example of on earth.
Why if one of the children of Israel thought they could get by offering one of their crippled lambs for the very first Passover have suffer death of all the firstborn of their household ?
Why would God not just give them a 2nd chance do over in 12 months at the next Passover ?
Or even why not a third chance for that matter ?
With all the Passovers that lay ahead in their future to correct their unbelief in God, why no second chance, third chance , to save their firstborn from death ?
If God had given a second shot at belief in His Word regarding the sacrifice to the Israelites about to flee Egypt, then you would have a clear example of God giving a second chance after unbelief in Him.
Do you understand how many instances on earth that are given by God in His Word that are in concord with the first Passover and which show no second chance being given?
Read God's example on earth of the one and only chance of the Hebrews to accept the commanded sacrifice of a perfect Lamb , the very image of the sacrificial Lamb of God Jesus no less, and avoid death, with no second chance to correct unbelief next year at the next Passover.
You cannot give the example of God giving a second chance of this magnitude in the Bible .
That is why you have not done so as of yet, and why you cannot do so .
Where is your on earth example of God's dealing with real people foretelling the second chance at eternal life in heaven ?

Exo 12:2
This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

Exo 12:3
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

Exo 12:5
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Exo 12:6
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Exo 12:7
And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Exo 12:12
¶
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
TOOLS

Exo 12:13
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Those of my faith sir

Very true!

Actually only the enlightened ones do sir. That is why there is no redemption for them.

No disrespect Alfred, you really go to great lengths to help, but I get lost in the shuffle sir. Please keep it simple with many steps if needed rather than writing a book that I cannot comprehend.

If you argue the doctrines and opinions of a group, a particular sect....you should reveal their identity.

No disrespect taken, you are right. My posts are too long, I should focus on one idea at a time.