up on this rock.

[ezra]

Christ told peter upon this ROCK..i will build my Church. the LORD JESUS CHRIST is that rock. if we are the Body of Christ why is the Church not Growing by leaps and bounds. in this Body there are many members..correct? paul told us no other foundation can we build on. along with being a wise master builder . along with being told what kind of materials to use. Gold Silver Precious Stone.the type material that will last. if we use wood hay stubble the material of the flesh. then we will have failure. of course the Church is made up of individuals . we then meet in a building that becomes a Church house. where we receive sound doctrine. along with getting fed encouraged . ready for battle out side the 4 walls.

my next question is why is there so much division. i just got off the phone with a pastor friend of mine. who had a visit from 3 men telling him how bad his son is and how he has such a dead end job.
yes the pastor son got in to legal trouble while he was not living at his dad home. him and his wife divorced he moved back home trying to get back on his feet.

i though as Christians we was to help those who need help. i might add that his son is trying to live for Christ. trying to turn over a new leaf * where does it say we are to tear each other down?
i was elected last sun morn for a 6 month time to my home church. to see if it is of GOD that i be the pastor.

our attendance has dropped very low . our funds was low i took a cut in pay to $50.00 a week. i am not looking for a pat on the back for this. but i am concerned do we give up because we are nearing the last days. or do we do as Christ said occupy till i come? as casting crowns sings if we are the Body why is our feet no going. why is our hands not reaching. .why is our Love not showing a better way..

 

[BornAgain]

Christ told peter upon this ROCK..i will build my Church. the LORD JESUS CHRIST is that rock. if we are the Body of Christ why is the Church not Growing by leaps and bounds. in this Body there are many members..correct? paul told us no other foundation can we build on. along with being a wise master builder . along with being told what kind of materials to use. Gold Silver Precious Stone.the type material that will last. if we use wood hay stubble the material of the flesh. then we will have failure. of course the Church is made up of individuals . we then meet in a building that becomes a Church house. where we receive sound doctrine. along with getting fed encouraged . ready for battle out side the 4 walls.

my next question is why is there so much division. i just got off the phone with a pastor friend of mine. who had a visit from 3 men telling him how bad his son is and how he has such a dead end job.
yes the pastor son got in to legal trouble while he was not living at his dad home. him and his wife divorced he moved back home trying to get back on his feet.

i though as Christians we was to help those who need help. i might add that his son is trying to live for Christ. trying to turn over a new leaf * where does it say we are to tear each other down?
i was elected last sun morn for a 6 month time to my home church. to see if it is of GOD that i be the pastor.

our attendance has dropped very low . our funds was low i took a cut in pay to $50.00 a week. i am not looking for a pat on the back for this. but i am concerned do we give up because we are nearing the last days. or do we do as Christ said occupy till i come? as casting crowns sings if we are the Body why is our feet no going. why is our hands not reaching. .why is our Love not showing a better way..

Scripture tells us:

Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I am in a very similar situation and we only have about 15 members in our church...it is sad every Sunday and Wednesday but like Matthew says...strait is the gate! We are the few I pray and will pray for your and your church.

 

[ezra]

there is no sense what so ever. either the church has a motto all for one one for all or close the doors. that is the message i preached sunday night.

 

[Hammer]

my next question is why is there so much division. i just got off the phone with a pastor friend of mine.

Because so many people think they know better than the Bible.

who had a visit from 3 men telling him how bad his son is and how he has such a dead end job.
yes the pastor son got in to legal trouble while he was not living at his dad home. him and his wife divorced he moved back home trying to get back on his feet.

i though as Christians we was to help those who need help. i might add that his son is trying to live for Christ. trying to turn over a new leaf * where does it say we are to tear each other down?

Is that man sorry for his sins or sorry his sins burned him?

but i am concerned do we give up because we are nearing the last days. or do we do as Christ said occupy till i come?

I hope your intent isn't seen in the face value of those questions.

 

[ezra]

I hope your intent isn't seen in the face value of those questions.

not sure what your point is..... the question i used is very serious

Because so many people think they know better than the Bible.

makes one wonder.

 

[Deborah13]

not sure what your point is..... the question i used is very serious


makes one wonder.

We could all worship together if people, including me, would put aside their doctrines and allow each person in the church to decide in whether they believe in OSAS,or something else, water batism regeneration, or something else, raising hands or not,
nope, it won't work....someone will be offended in some way.

Oh no, that baby cried and disturbed my worship!!

 

[ezra]

we all see scripture different and should be able get along

 

[Hammer]

not sure what your point is..... the question i used is very serious

You seriously are considering "giving up" because you believe we're nearing "the last days"?

 

[ezra]

You seriously are considering "giving up" because you believe we're nearing "the last days"?

no if my post seemed to say that over look me. that was not what i meant:eeeekkk all though i have one in the church that uses that phrase.. even the pastor i talked with mentioned that. while i do agree we are in the last days. days leading up to the 2nd coming of Christ. there is no reason to give up* personally i think its more of a lack of effort to support the church. church use to be of importance but today we treat it like wall mart . is there any good sales whats in it for me. yes you was correct there are those who know more than the Bible.

 

[Mitspa]

Scripture tells us:

Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I am in a very similar situation and we only have about 15 members in our church...it is sad every Sunday and Wednesday but like Matthew says...strait is the gate! We are the few I pray and will pray for your and your church.

I believe the "strait gate" is for the humble, those who die to self. Those who by grace labor in the things of God. Those who walk by the Spirit and haved died to the Pride of flesh.

Now, the "broad gate" is the way of natural man, religious tradition etc...

"There is a WAY that seems right to a man, but the end therein is destruction".

The carnal mind is at emnity with God!
The Spiritual mind is at peace with God!

 

[smaller]

We could all worship together if people, including me, would put aside their doctrines and allow each person in the church to decide in whether they believe in OSAS,or something else, water batism regeneration, or something else, raising hands or not,
nope, it won't work....someone will be offended in some way.

Oh no, that baby cried and disturbed my worship!!

A friend of mine was considering starting a nationwide push on the above type of ministry in a home church setting.

No doctrine, period.

In all of these things God is actually speaking pretty loudly to His people today. What message might be taken from that will remain held in individual subjectivity.

This overall difficulty has actually been brewing in the churches for several hundred years, obvious by a simple look at the produce, and will eventually be brought to a boil in every sect as they die off or split, or get locked into dead rituals.

Even in the reformed camps there are various alt. sects springing off in just about every direction.

Paul made this observation:

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

The fact is that God Himself comes to bear on every believer in some way in their church and in their life. I think Paul knew that and trusted God in Christ works things out.

He Himself does for a fact build His Church regardless of the adherents or their 'sects.'

A film maker by the name of Dan Merchant did a documentary called:

"Please Lord, Save Me From Your Followers" about this exact phenomena.

Even the unsaved have sense enough to avoid hypocrisy. Unbelievers know every believer puts their pants on the same way as everyone else. And most of them do a better job at loving their neighbors than the majority of church members.

Pretty sad really. My reaction to church members from personal experience has been for quite awhile, hmmmm? I wonder how this sect adherent is going to try to burn me alive forever or try to make me the 'subject' of their sect to supposedly avoid that fate that he dodges for himself?

I already know the intentions of their hearts before they even move their poisonous tongue.

Jesus rightfully branded vipers in heart for anyone to see, and avoid.

The basis of nearly every sect OR PERSON who claims 'exclusivity to Jesus' is this:

Mark 13:21
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there;

[and His admonishment]

believe him not:

s

 

[ezra]

A friend of mine was considering starting a nationwide push on the above type of ministry in a home church setting.

No doctrine, period.

In all of these things God is actually speaking pretty loudly to His people today. What message might be taken from that will remain held in individual subjectivity.

This overall difficulty has actually been brewing in the churches for several hundred years, obvious by a simple look at the produce, and will eventually be brought to a boil in every sect as they die off or split, or get locked into dead rituals.

Even in the reformed camps there are various alt. sects springing off in just about every direction.

Paul made this observation:

yes we have many like that today Paul warned of a time they would not endure sound doctrine . you have got to have order. thats why he gave pastors deacons teachers etc for the edifying of the body*

 

[smaller]

yes we have many like that today Paul warned of a time they would not endure sound doctrine . you have got to have order. thats why he gave pastors deacons teachers etc for the edifying of the body*

There really is an unseen phenomena at work in the bold above.

In the quest for truth, certain factual notches are made on the proverbial pole that others must adhere to.

And after a time, the wooden pole of certain facts and truths are notched out and carved out for agreements, and in the end, what the factual result often is, is a MAN'S or conglomeration of MAN'S totally subjective IDOL, claiming that these 'certain truth notches' are now thee one and only definitive of GOD in Christ.

In effect it's a form of idol worship.

If you study this phenomena in the Old Testament it eventually comes down to each man in his own tent carving his own idol and worshiping only the 'truth carved out' by his own subjectively determined notions around his own camp fire.

It's quite interesting. And still quite common.

s

 

[ezra]

Old Testament it eventually comes down to each man in his own tent carving his own idol and worshiping only the 'truth carved out' by his own subjectively determined notions around his own camp fire.

yes we have that today sad to say... but a true leader pastor will guard the flock. granted there are wolves in sheep clothing. i would hope discernment would be used and the leaders (deacons elders) would nip it before it spread like wildfire . that is what that office is to be used for. in today the deacon/elder thinks he rules the church and pastor. we are all servants the pastor feeds the sheep ..the deacons/elders make sure the pastor is giving the proper nutrients and not abusing the flock. i am not saying your above post is wrong only say true leaders of God will not purposely lead astray. another reason the members need to read and study the Bible. once again my only point is true leaders of GOD.. :yes

 

[Hammer]

A friend of mine was considering starting a nationwide push on the above type of ministry in a home church setting.

No doctrine, period.

That's complete nonsense, utter foolishness and hypocrisy. Aside from the fact that "no doctrine" is a doctrine, without doctrine, you have nothing. You can't say Jesus loves anyone. You can't say Jesus died four our sins. You can't believe in eternal life. These are doctrines.

1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

By rejecting doctrine, no only will you go unnourished, but you'll blow in the winds of false doctrine.

 

[ezra]

That's complete nonsense, utter foolishness and hypocrisy. Aside from the fact that "no doctrine" is a doctrine, without doctrine, you have nothing. You can't say Jesus loves anyone. You can't say Jesus died four our sins. You can't believe in eternal life. These are doctrines.

1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

By rejecting doctrine, no only will you go unnourished, but you'll blow in the winds of false doctrine.

good point.

 

[smaller]

That's complete nonsense, utter foolishness and hypocrisy. Aside from the fact that "no doctrine" is a doctrine, without doctrine, you have nothing. You can't say Jesus loves anyone. You can't say Jesus died four our sins. You can't believe in eternal life. These are doctrines.

I didn't say I agreed with that approach.

Was in fact pointing to the fact that TRUTH is factually held in our own openly shown 'subjectivity.'

And this is in fact a DOCTRINE that is taught by the Apostles.

We 'all' know only in PART and we all see only IN PART.

On this ground every believer should encounter what first?

His own shortsightedness. And when they DO, they are in fact speaking 'truth' and 'truthfully.'

Did any of us enter into complete and total understandings from the moment they believed?

Uh, prolly not. So we are all left to sort out our own limited sights. No one else can really do that for anyone.

s

 

[ezra]

I didn't say I agreed with that approach.

Was in fact pointing to the fact that TRUTH is factually held in our own openly shown 'subjectivity.'

And this is in fact a DOCTRINE that is taught by the Apostles.

We 'all' know only in PART and we all see only IN PART.

On this ground every believer should encounter what first?

His own shortsightedness. And when they DO, they are in fact speaking 'truth' and 'truthfully.'

Did any of us enter into complete and total understandings from the moment they believed?

Uh, prolly not. So we are all left to sort out our own limited sights. No one else can really do that for anyone.

s

i can agree with this i see good points in all

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christ told peter upon this ROCK..i will build my Church. the LORD JESUS CHRIST is that rock.

Christ is the rock of our salvation, for sure, and Christ is indeed the cornerstone of the church. But I think Jesus is saying that his church is built on the revelation and confession that He is the Christ. Everybody else who identifies themselves with the church, but does not have that revelation and confession in all that it implies, is the hay and stubble that will burn away from the building of God on the Day of Judgment. They will not pass through the Judgment safely.

if we are the Body of Christ why is the Church not Growing by leaps and bounds.

Where does this notion come from that growing by leaps and bounds is what is supposed to happen? Perhaps it comes from the skewed idea in the church today of what it exists to do.

...in this Body there are many members..correct? paul told us no other foundation can we build on. along with being a wise master builder . along with being told what kind of materials to use. Gold Silver Precious Stone.the type material that will last. if we use wood hay stubble the material of the flesh. then we will have failure. of course the Church is made up of individuals .

You're only touching on what Paul is actually saying in 1 Corinthians 3. The building blocks put in place on the foundation and cornerstone of Christ that do not survive the Judgment of fire are those who have not been made into that which will withstand the fires of the Judgment to come.

In context, it is false teachers with their false gospel that position people into the building of Christ as components of the building that will burn up at the Judgment, not survive the Judgment as building blocks made of unperishable material formed by a genuine gospel and a genuine faith in Christ. There is no reward for the worker who preaches a 'gospel' that will produce false believers made of perishable material who burn up at the Judgment.

The point is, who will Paul boast in, what reward will he show for his labors if he preaches a false gospel to the Corinthians? A false gospel that makes them into parts of the building of God that will be burned up and purged out of God's building at the Judgment? That's his point, and how he tries to validate his ministry and message as true to the Corinthians who are rejecting him and being drawn off to follow the false teachers that are deceiving them and building them up into parts of the Building of God that will not survive the Judgment.

...we then meet in a building that becomes a Church house. where we receive sound doctrine. along with getting fed encouraged . ready for battle out side the 4 walls.

The key to unity is to know what that battle is that we wage outside of the church.

When we make church all about the battle we all share without exception or difference we can be unified in peace. But if we make the battle we wage the battle of correct, non-salvic, doctrines and beliefs, and worship techniques, and the proper fulfilling of our varied gifts we effectively drive wedges of division between us that God never intended for us to have. And in the end we actually become the unproductive and ineffective people of God we thought we were so surely not going to be by pushing an agenda of proper non-essential doctrines, worship styles, and service according to our gifts.

my next question is why is there so much division.

We're not making the main thing the main thing. Plain and simple. The main thing is NOT correct, non essential doctrine, proper worship style and liturgy, and walking in our gifts. Make those the main thing and you'll effectively divide the body of Christ up along those lines instead of joining us together by what we do share without difference or exception--being godly people according to the fruit of the Spirit.

our attendance has dropped very low . our funds was low i took a cut in pay to $50.00 a week. i am not looking for a pat on the back for this. but i am concerned do we give up because we are nearing the last days. or do we do as Christ said occupy till i come? as casting crowns sings if we are the Body why is our feet no going. why is our hands not reaching. .why is our Love not showing a better way..

What's wrong with low attendance? What's wrong with being given 15, 20, or 200 of God's people to guide and encourage in their walks?

There is a Presbyterian and a Community Church at the end of my street out here in the country. Is it unreasonable to think that a pastor taking on those congregations is there to minister to the handful of God's people living near these churches? Why do we think God's plan is always to make mega churches out of every church that pops up?

Why can't God's plan ever be to just take care of the believers that ARE there, seeing them through from salvation to natural death, making sure they are made of the material that will survive the Judgment, adding and taking away from their number as God does that in proportion to the population that lives there? Is that unreasonable? I suggest that what has happened is this present day attitude of the world of 'the best, the biggest, the most successful, the most talented, the most powerful, the most lucrative' has invaded the church and led us astray from what God really wants us to do as a church of unified believers.

 

[ezra]

What's wrong with low attendance? What's wrong with being given 15, 20, or 200 of God's people to guide and encourage in their walks?

There is a Presbyterian and a Community Church at the end of my street out here in the country. Is it unreasonable to think that a pastor taking on those congregations is there to minister to the handful of God's people living near these churches? Why do we think God's plan is always to make mega churches out of every church that pops up? Why can't God's plan ever be to just take care of the believers that ARE there, seeing them through from salvation to natural death, adding and taking away from their number as God does that in proportion to the population that lives there? Is that unreasonable? I suggest that what has happened is this present day attitude of the world of 'the best, the biggest, the most successful, the most talented, the most powerful, the most lucrative' is that attitude has invaded the church.

not a thing wrong with 10-15 its hard support a church expenses on that number .the church can hold 100 easy we have building insurance electric bill etc.. don,t take it as i think about money. if i did i would not took a pay cut to $50.00 a week numbers is not every thing .. but the more you have the more chance of adding numbers to the lambs book of life ** i have pastor ed less numbers for less $$$$$ -- i take care of what ever number that is there. just 6 months ago the church was running around 35 or better not real sure what they had been running. when i returned back . i do believe GOD want his member ship in the local church to grow number most of all in spirit