Ok I will address your latest post.
Do you have any scripture that states God forced Adam or Eve or anyone else to disobey Him against their will?
JLB
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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?
- Thread starter Kermos
- Start date
- Status
Ok I will address your latest post.
Do you have any scripture that states God forced Adam or Eve or anyone else to disobey Him against their will?
JLB
Hello Tenchi and wondering (you Like Tenchi's post),
You framed your false dichotomy "But if Adam's will, because it comes from God and is like His will, is not truly free, one has to conclude that God's will is not free, either (Adam's will mirrors God's will, right?)..
The original post established that Adam's will is not precisely like God’s Will with:
The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adams will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
- The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
- God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
- Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
- Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
- Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
Tenchi and wondering, there you have it, instead of addressing what God had me write, you framed a false dichotomy.
That writing of yours exhibits a consistent flaw with Free-willian Philosophers, free-willians do things like ask a question that covertly conveys an unscriptural line of thinking, but, then, when the unscripturalness is illumined in the philosopher's question's embedded conveyance, then the free-willian writes things like "I was asking a (rhetorical?) question. And I never suggested a false dichotomy". You think in your self-will that there is no false dichotomy in your question, but your thinking remains a false dichotomy.
Thus says the Word of God:
No one comes to the Father except because of Me
(John 14:6)
Thus says the Only Way, Absolute Truth, and Everlasting Life:
he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(John 3:21)
Thus says the Christ of us Christians:
You did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)
My Lord and my God, Jesus Christ, declares that every single person who comes to God accomplishes this "coming to God" because of the choosing by the very Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) with no input from the child of God (John 15:16).
Your "It doesn't follow that" paragraph does not follow the sayings of Jesus - let's just look at who controls the "coming to God" in one of the verses that you cited "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44), you see, Christ did not say "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him along with his choosing of Me; and I will raise him up on the last day".
Your absence of Scripture indicates your preaching of the precepts of men, not the Word of God.
The Apostle Paul conveys of us Christians "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), but you convey of you free-willians "it is God who is at work in you, for you to choose whether God is allowed both to will and to work for His good pleasure"; therefore, your conveyance is out of accord with the Holy Spirit inspired conveyance of Paul.
Thus conveys the Word of God:
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(John 15:16)
Thus conveys the Christ of us Christians:
You did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16).
You convey ""this is the work of man, that you choose Him whom He has sent". You convey that Jesus contradicts Himself between John 6:29 and John 15:16 which is confusion.
We Christians love according to God’s working in us, for the Christ of us Christians says:
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another
(John 13:34)
The Apostle John is in accord with Jesus, truly God, words of even as I have loved you for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7). See the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the sole cause and source of true love!
So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God!
You cannot love righteously unless the love is caused by God.
continued to post 183
continued from post 182
Regarding faith/belief in Lord Jesus, the Christ of us Christians says:
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(John 6:29)
The Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10).
And Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God!
The Lord God Almighty places us Christians in relationship with Christ Jesus, our God and Savior, and we wretchedly weak creatures do absolutely nothing, not even a "I chose to believe Jesus" because such a free-willian statement contradicts Christ Jesus - a thing that Christians do not do (see John 6:29 quoted above and (John 12:48).
As to this exchange between Lord Jesus and a Pharisee:
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.
(Matthew 22:36-40)
there is no free-will, but you convey that Jesus says “You shall choose to love the Lord your God with all your heart" as you convey.
You doubt the Holy Spirit brings me back here.
I know the Holy Spirit of the Living God causes me to come back here for my Lord and my God Jesus Christ says "you also bear witness" (John 15:27).
In all things, glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)!
God gives me breath, and God causes me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6).
When you wrote "doesn't mean I can't choose to eat a piece of pecan pie rather than a doughnut" then you conveyed that you can glorify yourself beyond just that sweet doughnut in which you extend your power of man into your philosophy of "I chose sweet Jesus" despite Jesus saying "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
In effect, your writing is your owning of your detachment from God.
In all things, glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)!
Now look at you, you wrote the Word of God is unnecessary because God is in control!
That puts you in opposition to the Apostle Paul "the Love Of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14), and look at all the books of the New Testament that the Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Paul also wrote "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16).
Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus who declares:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age
(Matthew 28:19-20)
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).
A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.
Regarding faith/belief in Lord Jesus, the Christ of us Christians says:
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(John 6:29)
The Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10).
And Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God!
The Lord God Almighty places us Christians in relationship with Christ Jesus, our God and Savior, and we wretchedly weak creatures do absolutely nothing, not even a "I chose to believe Jesus" because such a free-willian statement contradicts Christ Jesus - a thing that Christians do not do (see John 6:29 quoted above and (John 12:48).
As to this exchange between Lord Jesus and a Pharisee:
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.
(Matthew 22:36-40)
You doubt the Holy Spirit brings me back here.
I know the Holy Spirit of the Living God causes me to come back here for my Lord and my God Jesus Christ says "you also bear witness" (John 15:27).
In all things, glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)!
God gives me breath, and God causes me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6).
When you wrote "doesn't mean I can't choose to eat a piece of pecan pie rather than a doughnut" then you conveyed that you can glorify yourself beyond just that sweet doughnut in which you extend your power of man into your philosophy of "I chose sweet Jesus" despite Jesus saying "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
In effect, your writing is your owning of your detachment from God.
In all things, glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)!
Now look at you, you wrote the Word of God is unnecessary because God is in control!
That puts you in opposition to the Apostle Paul "the Love Of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14), and look at all the books of the New Testament that the Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Paul also wrote "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16).
Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus who declares:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age
(Matthew 28:19-20)
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).
A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.
Free will is to do the will of the Faithful Creator who by His faith as a labor of love declared "let there be Love" and "it was God good" God is Love .
God's name is Jealous seeing he owns all thing but He shares His love helping our impatience so we can be kind the next attribute and right down to the last attribute.. love rejoices with the gospel not the darkness.
Tenchi
Member
Kermos:
Deuteronomy 30:15-19
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
If the freedom to choose is an illusion, if there is only God making people do what He wants (as Kermos asserts), is Moses not declaring a lie here? Why does he sketch out two options for the Israelites as though there is an actual choice that can be made between them when, in reality (according to the Calvinist), there is no choice but only God's divine decree? Whatever the Israelites do, they do because God has ordained (that is, compelled) them to do, not because they've truly chosen to do so. But this is not at all the sense of Moses' words in this passage which, when read in a natural, straightforward way, without the lens of Calvinism distorting the plain meaning of what Moses said, indicates that there was actually a real choice God set before the Israelites, not merely the illusion of one.
Joshua 24:15
15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua spoke in this verse in a way that indicated that he believed there was a real choice to be made between serving the Lord and the gods of the Amorites. He gave no hint that he thought that he and those to whom he spoke were just puppets dancing to the irresistible will of God, choosing only what He determined them to choose (which is, then, no choice at all). In demonstration of Joshua's belief that he had a real choice to make, he told the Israelites what his choice was, hoping, I think to encourage other to do the same. Of course, if Joshua knew he was just going to do whatever God ordained that he should do, publicly declaring his choice was useless for it would have no bearing upon what God had determined should happen. Joshua doesn't give any indication, though, that he thought in this Calvinist way about his free agency. He spoke in a way that demonstrated that he believed he was making an actual, free choice between two options.
Joshua 24:22
22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
Here, Joshua confirmed that he believed both he and all Israel were making a genuine choice to serve the Lord, not merely following the pre-ordained dictates of God. This is doubly confirmed by his emphasis of the fact that they were all witnesses to the choice they'd made, as though they were responsible for both making and fulfilling their choice to serve the Lord. But such responsibility is only possible if their choice was freely made, not compelled by God's decree. No one is responsible for actions taken under irresistible constraints: A man brain damaged by accidental injury is not responsible for the resulting permanent cognitive deficits; a two month old baby is not responsible for pooping its diaper; and a person is not responsible for things God has made them do.
Judges 2:19-20
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people has transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
Why was God's anger "hot" against Israel if, ultimately, He was the One through divine decree who'd made Israel corrupt, bowing down and serving other gods? If all is determined by God, then He's to blame for Israel straying from Him. Why isn't angry with Himself, then? It's His fault that Israel turned from Him, isn't it? This is the obvious conclusion, if God, at bottom, makes everybody do what they're doing.
The non-Calvinist reader of Scripture doesn't have to end up at this cock-eyed place where God is the Author of the things He's angry about, but understands that God is "hot" in his anger toward Israel because the nation freely chose to chase after false gods in wicked defiance of God's will.
2 Samuel 24:12
12 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’”
This is madness if Calvinism is true. There was no real choice here, only God pretending that there was a choice. David would only do what God had already determined he would do. The whole "choose one of the three options", then, was a farce, a bizarre and pointless exercise in, well, nothing, since God ordains every single thing (according to the Calvinist). A natural reading of this event, though, uncontorted by Calvinism, does not suggest that God was just playing a game with David, but was giving him a real, actual choice to make.
Isaiah 66:3
3 …These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
Acts 15:39-40
39 And there arose a sharp disagreement, so that they separated from each other. Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus,
40 but Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord.
Philippians 1:22
22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
Romans 11:22-23
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Mark 10:35-38
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.”
36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?”
37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”
38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
2 Timothy 1:12
12 ...for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
Mark 12:24
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
All of these other verses/passages confirm that we make real free choices, following knowledge, reason and evidence to conclusions rather than being simply forced by God to think and act as we do.
Deuteronomy 30:15-19
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
If the freedom to choose is an illusion, if there is only God making people do what He wants (as Kermos asserts), is Moses not declaring a lie here? Why does he sketch out two options for the Israelites as though there is an actual choice that can be made between them when, in reality (according to the Calvinist), there is no choice but only God's divine decree? Whatever the Israelites do, they do because God has ordained (that is, compelled) them to do, not because they've truly chosen to do so. But this is not at all the sense of Moses' words in this passage which, when read in a natural, straightforward way, without the lens of Calvinism distorting the plain meaning of what Moses said, indicates that there was actually a real choice God set before the Israelites, not merely the illusion of one.
Joshua 24:15
15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua spoke in this verse in a way that indicated that he believed there was a real choice to be made between serving the Lord and the gods of the Amorites. He gave no hint that he thought that he and those to whom he spoke were just puppets dancing to the irresistible will of God, choosing only what He determined them to choose (which is, then, no choice at all). In demonstration of Joshua's belief that he had a real choice to make, he told the Israelites what his choice was, hoping, I think to encourage other to do the same. Of course, if Joshua knew he was just going to do whatever God ordained that he should do, publicly declaring his choice was useless for it would have no bearing upon what God had determined should happen. Joshua doesn't give any indication, though, that he thought in this Calvinist way about his free agency. He spoke in a way that demonstrated that he believed he was making an actual, free choice between two options.
Joshua 24:22
22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
Here, Joshua confirmed that he believed both he and all Israel were making a genuine choice to serve the Lord, not merely following the pre-ordained dictates of God. This is doubly confirmed by his emphasis of the fact that they were all witnesses to the choice they'd made, as though they were responsible for both making and fulfilling their choice to serve the Lord. But such responsibility is only possible if their choice was freely made, not compelled by God's decree. No one is responsible for actions taken under irresistible constraints: A man brain damaged by accidental injury is not responsible for the resulting permanent cognitive deficits; a two month old baby is not responsible for pooping its diaper; and a person is not responsible for things God has made them do.
Judges 2:19-20
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people has transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
Why was God's anger "hot" against Israel if, ultimately, He was the One through divine decree who'd made Israel corrupt, bowing down and serving other gods? If all is determined by God, then He's to blame for Israel straying from Him. Why isn't angry with Himself, then? It's His fault that Israel turned from Him, isn't it? This is the obvious conclusion, if God, at bottom, makes everybody do what they're doing.
The non-Calvinist reader of Scripture doesn't have to end up at this cock-eyed place where God is the Author of the things He's angry about, but understands that God is "hot" in his anger toward Israel because the nation freely chose to chase after false gods in wicked defiance of God's will.
2 Samuel 24:12
12 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’”
This is madness if Calvinism is true. There was no real choice here, only God pretending that there was a choice. David would only do what God had already determined he would do. The whole "choose one of the three options", then, was a farce, a bizarre and pointless exercise in, well, nothing, since God ordains every single thing (according to the Calvinist). A natural reading of this event, though, uncontorted by Calvinism, does not suggest that God was just playing a game with David, but was giving him a real, actual choice to make.
Isaiah 66:3
3 …These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
Acts 15:39-40
39 And there arose a sharp disagreement, so that they separated from each other. Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus,
40 but Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord.
Philippians 1:22
22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
Romans 11:22-23
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Mark 10:35-38
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.”
36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?”
37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”
38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
2 Timothy 1:12
12 ...for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
Mark 12:24
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
All of these other verses/passages confirm that we make real free choices, following knowledge, reason and evidence to conclusions rather than being simply forced by God to think and act as we do.
Adam used to represent Christ. . . the one good teaching master. Adam as the head was to protect the wife representing the church or bride of Christ. And he received the prophecy" thou shall not eat or in dying you will come to a end and never rise".
Apparently the father of lies the spirit of false prophecy, false apostles must of whispered in the ear weaker of the two "and neither shall you touch it". violated the warning not to add or substract form sola scriptural.
She in turned gave false prophecy to Adam .Satan deceiving both with one lie Adam using the bride as a scapegoat when she touched having already believing the lie then he to touched and ate the forbidden fruit.
The new Adam the Son of man Jesus did the will of the Holy Father with delight eating the fruit of the Father will .His wife loved Him. He loved her to death pouring out his own life ,
Corinth77777
Member
Whose his wife that loved Him?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Kermos, I guess you don't understand that I won't reply to long posts.
Especially those written to another member.
You are repeating the same story over and over and I will not be contributing to your posts.
If you think man does not have free will, so be it.
It would be interesting, however, to understand the following:
Matthew 13:41-43
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Here are a few questions for you:
1. Who will be gathered out of the Kingdom of God?
2. Who will shine forth in the Kingdom of the Father?
Does the above speak of being chosen by God for heaven or being passed over for hell?
NO.
It speaks of angels sent by Jesus to gather out of the Kingdom all who are lawless...who do not follow the Law of God.
It states that THE RIGHTEOUS will shine forth in the Kingdom of God...
NOT those whom YOU think will be chosen by God.
NOWHERE in the bible does it state that God randomly chooses those who are to be saved and those who are not.
GOD HAS A REASON for choosing who will be saved.
And He was good enough and loving enough to allow us to know WHAT had to be done by us in order to be chosen.
Any other belief goes against the mercy, love and justice of God.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I'm sorry Mr. G Lee,
I don't really understand what you're saying above.
When Jesus was on earth, He had a body like ours.
I also agree that God Father does not have a body - probably - at least not one like we have.
I believe He is spirit.
Are you calling Jesus a Prophet?
Also, are you saying that God Father chooses who is saved and who is lost?
Please clarify so that I could respond.
Thanks.
Yes a prophet as a apostle a messenger of God sent to declare the will of the Father
God is still sending out apostles today with His word (sola scriptura)
God chooses who he will save .
Not sure what you are asking? It was not love that caused loss or virtue .
Eve the mother of the mankind as the weaker designed vessel was used as a false prophet adding to the commandment given to Adam .Proving herself to be a false apostle (one sent by God ) She was sent by the father of lies who violated the law or principle "do not add or subtract from the living word of God" .
God did not command Adam to touch it
Genesis 3:3-4 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
God did not command Adam the spokesman to not touch. When the serpent heard her words he sealed the deal "you shall not surely die" look at my glorious beauty and live forever . Why believe in a God not seen????
Adam the prophet fell for the lie of the father of lies that he heard from his wife "neither shall you touch"(the forbidden touch)
Rather than the living word God (Do not eat) Adam who as the head was to protect. He waited till she touched and both ate . Satan used the wife the weaker vessel to deceive both
God did not say "neither shall you touch it" . Virtue was lost.
Virtue two walking together in perfect agreement .
A good example of that kind of forbidden touch is found in Luke as well as others . There God not seen is working in the woman moved her to touch the Son of man, Jesus.
Apparently as a shadow that virtue was to become sight in the new heavens and earth it was used beforehand To show the new heavens and earth was restored like in the garden.
It is the work of the father in the woman it was even hid from Jesus until she was moved as a confession of her new born again faith .
Peter was shocked in effect saying; are you out of your mind ? We are clothed 360 degrees with no elbow room .
I would call it . .the doctrine of the virtuous born again touch.
Luke 8:45-47 King James Version And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
And yet He manifested as one. I'm not here to debate on his humanity and/or his divinity. I sensed a possible notion of gnosticism, and I shot it down, that's all.
And yet manifested ( "in" not seen the "invisible eternal" . .not "of" that which seen temporal/ empirical a creation .
Many sons of God. Jesus the Son of man the first born again of many .
1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
God is not a man.
One Christ in us, the one hope of His Holy Spirit, a living Hope beyond the grave .
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him,(the faithful invisible Creator) for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The Son of man Jesus became a son of the Holy Father the first born of many .He confessed Not as I will no power but you the will with power to raise the dead as a new creation. What we will be as his wife is not known.
What do you think gnosticism means?
LOL slow down
When mankind gets angry with God Spirit of Truth they look for fault in other knowing God brings people into our lives LOL . . Kill those bible thumpers out of sight out of mind. Who believes in a God not seen mentality God calls them fools
I can see you are not interesting in studying the Spirit of truth according to his loving commandment (2 Timothy 2:15)
When people get angry with God's Spirit of truth as it is written they look for fault in others and in jealousy seek to stack sides . . they go around like a roaring lion trying to remove the toothpick when the forest is blocking them from looking in the mirror of liberty the gospel of salvation
Matthew 7:5King James Version5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
So let me understand....
Every prophet named in the Old Testament is a Son of God?
They also declared the Word of God.
They also were messengers of God.
And how would you understand the difference between an Apostle and a Prophet
if they were both to declare the will of the Father?
Could you name me an Apostle of today?
I do believe that the last Apostle died with the death of John the Apostle.
HOW? How does God choose who will be saved?
Does He follow a set of rules?
Can WE know who will be saved and who will be lost?
Thanks for the reply
Yes, every true prophet beginning with Abel .
There are true prophets that declare the law gospel as messengers called apostles. And false prophets sent as false apostles .
It's a combination of two gifts working as one . never alone. .
God does give us prophecy then send the apostles. . again as one "Let there be" and "It was God good"
Those words (apostle) sent one and prophets that prophesy. . . it is altogether one work of God that he works in his true prophets . . sending them out to declare the power of His will.
A good understanding of key words that can come from experience can help sort through in a hope of finding His understanding .
False prophet as false apostles add their own oral tradition making His tradition as it is writen without effect
We must be careful how we use words (hear God) One word misinterpreted can change the author's intent and darken the path .(spiritual plagiarism)
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Abel was not a prophet.
You speak about using words correctly and yet, YOU do not use words correctly.
Where did you learn that Abel was a prophet?
Here is a link that will take you to read about the Prophets.
There were 12 Apostles as described in the New Testament.
Paul is also considered to be an Apostle.
When John died in his early 90's, it was the END of the APOSTOLIC AGE.
Matthew 10:2-5
2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
5These twelve Jesus sent out...
Where does the bible state that there were more Apostles than the above?
Apostles were SENT OUT.
Prophets spoke to Word of God to the Israelites when they were falling into sin against God.
They were ORACLES.
It may be one work....but by two different forces that should not be intermingled.
Correct. So please use correct wording and do not mix categories of persons in the bible.
Sure. Except that the bible also states:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
Some instructions came by oral traditions.
For example, by the early church fathers, who were taught by the Apostles.
Agreed.
So please follow your own advice.
If you would follow the use of the word apostle. . sent messenger as to how beautiful are their feet to its conclusion, then you could understand the use of the word apostle. Its origin has all but been destroyed by a religion of venerable men that lord it over the understanding of the non-venerable as false apostles brings false prophecy (oral traditions of the fathers dying mankind. Having changed the meaning of the word sent messenger to highly venerable ones. Inventing a time factor
If you want to call it an age, then it begins with the first messenger a prophet sent from God, Abel . The age of prophets sent as messengers continues today. Only difference God is no longer bring new revelations and confirming they are his as it is written (Sola scriptura ) sealed with 7 seals till the last day under the Sun.
The way it is used makes the 12 set aside to be used in the doctrine of the bride Revelation 21. That purpose 12 a golden measure (unknown) used in those parables to represent the unseen authority of God .as it is written (sola scriptura)
No authority comes from dying mankind working out that which was appointed to mankind. . death. . . never to rise.
Believers as sons of God are given a new spirit that will never die. Yoked with him our daily burdens can be lighter.
1 Corinthians 3:7-8 So then neither is he (apostle) that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Abel used to define a true apostle sent with the will of God prophecy as it is written.
Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Luke 11:51From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Why better than Abel. Abel is a shadow of "let there be" and "it was good" testified by the Holy Father and Son working as one.
There are apostles as messengers today true and false. And will be till the end.
It was false messengers by the oral tradition's false prophecy. I heard it through the dying fathers' grape vine that changed the English word for the Greek Angelous from messenger to angel a fake word that was coined by false prophets in a hope of being venerated. A clear wile of the father of lies, the father of false prophets' false apostles.
Hebrews 13:1-3Young's Literal Translatio1 Let brotherly love remain of the hospitality be not forgetful, for through this unawares certain did entertain messengers; be mindful of those in bonds, as having been bound with them, of those maltreated, as also yourselves being in the body;
No mistreatment of invisible creation. Just one invisible Creator faithful ."Let there be" and "it was God good" as perfect.
Hello again wondering,
A person commits evil sin by disobeying God's Commandments such as "You shall not bear false witness" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 19:18) which refers to "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16, one of the Ten Commandments). Your "You pick words out instead of reading entire chapters" is an outright lie because God has had me read the entire Bible with God-given understanding.
Bible chapter and verse designations were added long after the original manuscripts were penned, so, while chapter and verse are useful, your priority on chapter islands instead of concepts the Word of God propounds inside and/or outside the boundaries of a chapter illuminates your inability to understand Scripture. God has me here proclaiming to you that the Christ does things like maintains the Old Testament's concept recorded in Exodus 20:16 as a New Testament concept for the life of a Christian in Christ.
The Word of God says "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" (Matthew 23:13). As a reminder, you scribed "You pick words out instead of reading entire chapters", but then in your same post, you quoted a single verse of John 11:45 as your free-will proof. You accused me in your self same post that you did the very thing that you accused me - that is hypocrisy, and Jesus used a very strong word against such hypocrisy.
The Word of God conclusively declares the concept of "no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6), so the Word of God excludes man, including you wondering, from coming to the Father because of your purported free-will - see that God alone is the cause. This dispenses of where you asked "What's the difference?".
Christ's words indicate precisely the same result:
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself
(John 12:32)
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me.
(John 14:6)
Neither Word of God statement attributes coming to God as being under the control of man's purported free-will.
Both Word of God statements attribute coming to God as exclusively under the control of God.
You convey "GOD NEITHER CAUSES nor chooses, based on NOTHING, to come to God because it does not state this".
You wrote "Because it does not state this", and you used the word indicating "cause" - just look at the first word from your quoted statement right there.
So, your thoughts can be restated accurately as "Jesus not saying that God causes people to come to God in John 14:6 IS THE CAUSE of God not causing people to come to God".
See how your "because" is the same thing as "IS THE CAUSE".
Lord Jesus used the word "because" in the Word of God "no one comes to the Father except because of Me (John 14:6).
So, this Word of God can be restated accurately as "I exclusively AM THE CAUSE of every single person's coming to God" (per John 14:6)
Now, your diametrically opposite concept to the Word of God is evident because Jesus conveys "I exclusively AM THE CAUSE of every person who comes to God" (per John 14:6), yet you convey "Jesus not saying that God causes people to come to God in John 14:6 IS THE CAUSE of God not causing people to come to God".
Praise Lord Jesus for His lovingkindness, that God causes us children of God to come to God! Praise God for God's strong right arm saving us unworthy depraved wretches from the wrath of God - to God be all the glory!!!
This Christ founded concept "God causes man to come to God" occurs in more than just John 14:6. The Lord also says it where Jesus says every good deed (including the deed of practicing the Truth and the deed of coming to God) of every Christian is exclusively caused by God with “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); in other words, every Christian's good deeds are not caused by the Christian, but, rather, every Christian's good deeds are caused by God to the glory of God (John 15:8)!
The Apostle John does NOT state that their "saw" was the "reason" (aka "cause") of their "believing" in his blessed testimony of "Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him", and John certainly did not attribute this "believing" to free-will because John knew the Word of God attributes their "believing" to the act of God with "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Your thoughts extend to mean that not only is their "believing" caused by their "saw" but also because they "came to Mary" which puts you in the "not by Christ alone" camp.
You inquired "Could you please give a source?", yet God caused me to address that very question before you asked in the post to which you replied:
The linguistic examination of because in John 14:6, above, demonstrates that the Author and Perfecter of the faith, Jesus Christ, the Founder of Christianity, says 1,500 years-ish before Luther and Calvin were born that God exclusively causes persons of God's choosing to come to God (John 14:6).
Lord Jesus Christ is the only source that matters, wondering.
Words matter, for thus says the Word "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be damned" (Matthew 12:37).
An uninvolved innocent bystander received an immediately fatal gunshot wound to the back of his head with the first shot of a surprise battle between rival gangs at the crowded loud shopping mall food court. Some bystanders waiting in line for food with their backs to the escalating violence across the food court were not aware of the battle until it was over.
The dead bystanderer did not accept the gunshot fatal wound. The dead bystander did not have time to accept the fatal gunshot wound. The dead bystander received the fatal gunshot wound, and he died immediately.
You lied in your post's opening word, and now you lie about the concept that the word "receive" defines when you wrote "If you RECEIVE something, it means you ACCEPTED it"!
Receive does not mean accept, nor does accept mean receive. A dictionary is necessary for you; otherwise, you end up with "worship in vain" (Matthew 15:9).
Receive conceptualizes an event that unavoidablely occurs from a source to a destination.
Since you do not receive the true meaning of "receive", then you fail to accurately receive the Apostle John's passage that you brought up in this exchange:
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God
(John 1:12-13).
continued to post #202
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