Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Kermos]

continued from post #201

What?
Don't understand your point.

Those THAT PRACTICE the truth
Come to the light.

You practice...
You come to the light.

Practicing comes first....
THEN you come to the light.

The Word of God says:

he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God
(Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)
​

The practice is a deed which is wrought in God.

The come is a deed which is wrought in God.

You convey "he who practices the truth as having been wrought in him comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God", so your conveyance is unlike Lord Christ's conveyance.

Lord Jesus conveys that he who is in the Truth (John 14:6) - Jesus Christ - comes to the Light (John 1:4) - Jesus Christ (John 3:21)! The Word (John 1:14) - Jesus Christ - is MARVELOUS!!! All praise the name of Jesus Christ!!!

I chose you refers to the Apostles.

You convey that "I chose you refers to the Apostles" about the Word "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so in effect this means that your faith is that Jesus chose only the Apostles, and your conveyance is able to be compared to Scripture in order to test for truth or deceit regarding your conveyance.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Joseph was there when the Lord says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so Jesus says to Joseph "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, your "I chose you refers to the Apostles" exclusivity is proveably a lie according to Scripture.

You convey that you believe Jesus says "you Apostles but not Joseph did not choose Me, but I chose you Apostles but not Joseph" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), yet your conveyance is NOT what Jesus says.

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus Christ blesses all believers in all time with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
• "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Thanks for posting all those other verses, but choosing means something different in each one.

Do you care to explain your belief about the "choosing means something different in each one" in the passages?

BTW, IF you can CHOOSE something,
it means you have FREE WILL.

You wrote "IF you can CHOOSE something, it means you have FREE WILL" - no Scripture ascribes man "FREE WILL" so man does not have "FREE WILL".

That statement of yours is absolutely false because there is no such thing as free-will. Here is the accurate rendering "IF you can CHOOSE something, it means you have WILL".

Now, as to what kind of "will" can a man have, let's continue.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

IMAGINE a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting through the curves.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to navigate the streets". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

On the other hand, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car" "engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached" in reference to free-will, whether such philosophers like it or not.

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between Christ-image will salvation (Philippians 2:14) and self-will damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What do you think gnosticism means?

A false dichotomy of matter vs spirit, see my post #174.

 

[Grailhunter]

continued from post 182



Regarding faith/belief in Lord Jesus, the Christ of us Christians says:

​

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent​

(John 6:29)​

​

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10).

And Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God!

The Lord God Almighty places us Christians in relationship with Christ Jesus, our God and Savior, and we wretchedly weak creatures do absolutely nothing, not even a "I chose to believe Jesus" because such a free-willian statement contradicts Christ Jesus - a thing that Christians do not do (see John 6:29 quoted above and (John 12:48).



As to this exchange between Lord Jesus and a Pharisee:

​

"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.​

(Matthew 22:36-40)​

​

there is no free-will, but you convey that Jesus says “You shall choose to love the Lord your God with all your heart" as you convey.



You doubt the Holy Spirit brings me back here.

I know the Holy Spirit of the Living God causes me to come back here for my Lord and my God Jesus Christ says "you also bear witness" (John 15:27).

In all things, glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)!

God gives me breath, and God causes me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6).



When you wrote "doesn't mean I can't choose to eat a piece of pecan pie rather than a doughnut" then you conveyed that you can glorify yourself beyond just that sweet doughnut in which you extend your power of man into your philosophy of "I chose sweet Jesus" despite Jesus saying "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In effect, your writing is your owning of your detachment from God.

In all things, glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)!



Now look at you, you wrote the Word of God is unnecessary because God is in control!

That puts you in opposition to the Apostle Paul "the Love Of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14), and look at all the books of the New Testament that the Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Paul also wrote "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16).

Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus who declares:

​

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age​

(Matthew 28:19-20)​

​

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Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

I have read through this thread and thank you for copying and pasting a bunch of scriptures....scriptures are good. But it is time to play with the big guns….

But if you are trying to make a point show how the scriptures make your point. Do you believe we are programmed robots? No free-will or no programming, no forced actions, nothing would move or do anything. So what is it that you are getting at?

Lets say you believe God hates people, you can find scriptures to support that…but does it make sense?

Lets say you believe that Yeshua thinks we should hate our father and mother, you can find a scripture that support that, but does it make sense?

Lets say you believe that only a few will be saved, you can find a scripture that supports that, but does it makes any sense?

Did God give us the scriptures to be non-sense? That is not normal.

No free-will and predestination as a reality and the belief of Calvinism is extreme non-sense.

Then again does God have the ability of predestination and clairvoyance?….for sure. Is all of reality an orchestrated play? Humanity is nothing but puppets on strings? No.

Is there a difference between predestination and clairvoyance? Yes.

Are humans programmed robots with no free-will? No.

If God forces or predestines us to love Him because we do not have free-will, does that mean our love for Him means nothing to Him?

If God forces or predestines us to have faith in Him because we do not have free-will, does that mean that faith does not mean anything to Him? What does forced faith do for us?

If God forces or predestines us to believe in Him because we do not have free-will, does that belief in Him mean anything to Him? Does that belief have anything to do with salvation?

Do we just go through the motions of salvation because we were predestined to do it before the creation of the world? Does the process do anything for us and does it mean anything to God?

If God forces or predestines us to worship Him because we do not have free-will, does that worship mean anything to Him?

If God forces or predestines us to do evil because we do not have free-will, is it our fault?

 

[Grailhunter]

Continued pleasing the Lord through force effort
If we are to do things that please the Lord, how can any of that please Him if he is forcing us to do it?

1st John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

Hebrews 13:16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

2nd Corinthians 5:9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

John 8:29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.

1st Thessalonians 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more.

2nd Thessalonians 2:4 But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.

Ephesian 5:8-10 For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.

Hebrews 13:15-16 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Colossians 1:10 So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

1st Timothy 5:3-5 Honor widows who are truly widows. But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show godliness to their own household and to make some return to their parents, for this is pleasing in the sight of God. She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day,

The Sheep and the Goats Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

James 4:17 So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If we are to do things that please the Lord, how can any of that please Him if he is forcing us to do it?

God doesn't force anybody to do anything, there're consequences come with disobedience and rewards come with obedience, the choice is ours.

 

[Corinth77777]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

• God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
  AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
  AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
  YET a command does not convey ability
  BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
  NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
  IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
  AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
  THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
  THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
  SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
  AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
  SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
  AND the firm fact is established
  THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
• The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
• Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
  • The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
    SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
    THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
    IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
    THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
    BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
    THEREFORE it follows that man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
    COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adams will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
    1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
    2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
    3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
    4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
    5. Man's free will is a precept of man leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9)
  • Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
    SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
    AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
    AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Job 42:2)
    THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
    SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
    SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
    THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
  • The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
    BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
    AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
    FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
    YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
    THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" Genesis 2:17)
    THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened (perceived) and followed her word about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
    SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
    AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
    SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
    YET action is the context
    SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
  • An inherently good Adam would have assuredly and absolutely excluded eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
    BECAUSE an inherently good Adam would have acted in the good way of obedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17)
    WITH the good way being God's Way (John 14:6)
    YET "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
    AND it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31)
    NOTE in "it was very good", the word "it" is grammatically a third person singular thus referring to the entirety of creation being constructed well (good) on course with God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
    YET the word "it" is not third person plural as in "they were very good" of which a third person plural is required in order to refer to an individual such as Adam or the Devil the Serpent
    AND the Word of God specifically excludes Adam from being good with "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
    SO the spirit of antichrist preaches that Adam with all mankind as good for any amount of time thus nullifying the need for the Savior
    BEHOLD that God saw the whole package, the complete creation, the "all" that He had made, that it was very good
    BUT God did not specify how the aggregate (all) that He had made was very good therein
    AND God did not specify any constituents of creation as being inherently good therein
    AND God creating "all that He had made" for God in Jesus Christ to come to earth to save evil man is very good
    SO with certainty, God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good
  • The attribute of "joining" - marriage
    1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
    2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ, that is, the Assembly of God
    3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
    4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
    5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
    6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
    7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
    THEREFORE God exclusively causes individuals to join into the Assembly of God.

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor.

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

Honestly It would take me a couple of days or so to read this book. I usually look for the question in the title. And from merely looking at that I'd say Adam was given free will

Free will is the ability to choose. And the beginning that I know of is in the naming of the Animals. Second would be of all thee trees in the garden that He could eat from. Third would be His naming of Eve, 4th, would be saying no to Eve when being offered the fruit to eat.

Adding
Now what one means as imparted not sure...I probably looked over that word.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation

If God has free will and Adam was made in God's image, then Adam had free will. However, I believe he caved in to the pressure from Eve to eat from the tree, he was being emotional and not thinking straight.

 

[Kermos]

If you CHOOSE to hear and do the will of God . It is only because God works powerfully in us to both give us ear and empower those dead in their trespass to rise and perform it to His good pleasure. He gives us the breath of eternal life.

Philippians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus empowered by the Father did the will of the Father with delight. Jonas kicked against the pricks all the way then wanted to die rather than see the results knowing God is a God of grace and mercy .

We can ask our own selves. What kind of witness to the power of God are we hoping to display ? Jonas or the Son of man< Jesus ? God simply is not served by the dying will or hands of mankind. He moves dying mankind, men cannot move the Rock

Praise God!

Another post that is a blessing to read!

You mentioned Philippians 2:13-14, well quoted.

I also love to read "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

Here, the Apostle Paul attributes obeyed and work out your salvation with fear and trembling as to the very God who is at work in you - obedience is the work of God in us Christians, not by the power of man, but truly by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) for His good pleasure!

Praise be to the Living Lord Jesus Christ!!!

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The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

This looks like the biggest sin in western philosophy that is gnosticism, which provokes a false dichotomy - material things bad, spiritual things good; practical things bad, theoretical things good; present things bad, future things good, and in your argument, corrupted earthly Jerusalem bad, new heavenly Jerusalem good. This is not a biblical view. Christ is both man and God, there is no dichotomy in him.

Hi thanks for the reply .I would offer.

Material thing were created good. . . today, fools gold

Christ is our golden good God working in dying mankind under a curse. . the appointment death never to rise God is not a man .

I would call it the doctrine of golden good

Satan teaches natural mankind that God is a man . . .a creation. The father of lies .satan needs form to send out false apostles false prophets (oral traditons of dying mankind) as he did with Peter in Matthew 16 using Peter to rebuke our good God

The wrath of God comes against that kind of idea that we need to worship the things seen Jesus, the Son of man but not the unseen Holy Father

(purple) my offering as a understanding .

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (son of man Jesus) more than the Creator,(our unsern Holy Father). who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Jesus the Son of man I would think would never attempt to rob the Holy Father of his unseen golden glory that will become sight in the new heavens and earth . Jesus in order to show the work of two walking together as one. . reflected the golden glory of the Holy Father Jesus seen was not the source .He reflected it as the moon reflects the Sun . In the new heavens and earth no Sun or moon no darkness as night

Mark 10:16-18King James Version And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.1 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Only God uses the term good as in perfect or complete (Creator and it was good. ) The signature of Him not seen. . At the end all six days they were declared as very or perfectly complete (good)

Interestingly during the time when he was working he declared Gold a rudiment of this word as the same kind of good . it would seem the golden measure of faith hidden from sight . . revealed within the Book of prophecy the Bible, the living word of our Holy Father .

Follow the good gold look for the hidden manna. below a beautiful gospel parable

Deuteronomy 31 24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,(sola scriptura) That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you would follow the use of the word apostle. . sent messenger as to how beautiful are their feet to its conclusion, then you could understand the use of the word apostle. Its origin has all but been destroyed by a religion of venerable men that lord it over the understanding of the non-venerable as false apostles brings false prophecy (oral traditions of the fathers dying mankind. Having changed the meaning of the word sent messenger to highly venerable ones. Inventing a time factor

An Apostle is someone who is sent.
BUT
There has to be a distinction made between the FIRST APOSTLES and those that are sent afterwards.
We call them missionaries today.
Words are important to understand what a person is speaking of.
We cannot make up our own meanings for words.
This is the last I'll speak about this.

If you want to call it an age, then it begins with the first messenger a prophet sent from God, Abel . The age of prophets sent as messengers continues today. Only difference God is no longer bring new revelations and confirming they are his as it is written (Sola scriptura ) sealed with 7 seals till the last day under the Sun.

I didn't say I wanted to call anything an age.
Abel was not a prophet, and there cannot be prophets today as in the OT because they are no longer necessary
because Jesus was the ultimate revelation from God and we need no further revelation.

The way it is used makes the 12 set aside to be used in the doctrine of the bride Revelation 21. That purpose 12 a golden measure (unknown) used in those parables to represent the unseen authority of God .as it is written (sola scriptura)

No authority comes from dying mankind working out that which was appointed to mankind. . death. . . never to rise.

Believers as sons of God are given a new spirit that will never die. Yoked with him our daily burdens can be lighter.

I agree with your last sentence.

1 Corinthians 3:7-8 So then neither is he (apostle) that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

We are all laborers for God....
We are not Apostles.

Abel used to define a true apostle sent with the will of God prophecy as it is written.

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

This does not state that Abel was a prophet, but that from Abel to Zechariah there is blood spilled of the righteous persons on earth.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Why better than Abel. Abel is a shadow of "let there be" and "it was good" testified by the Holy Father and Son working as one.

There are apostles as messengers today true and false. And will be till the end.

It was false messengers by the oral tradition's false prophecy. I heard it through the dying fathers' grape vine that changed the English word for the Greek Angelous from messenger to angel a fake word that was coined by false prophets in a hope of being venerated. A clear wile of the father of lies, the father of false prophets' false apostles.

Hebrews 13:1-3Young's Literal Translatio1 Let brotherly love remain of the hospitality be not forgetful, for through this unawares certain did entertain messengers; be mindful of those in bonds, as having been bound with them, of those maltreated, as also yourselves being in the body;

No mistreatment of invisible creation. Just one invisible Creator faithful ."Let there be" and "it was God good" as perfect.

I don't know what you mean.
An angel is a messenger from God.
And who are these false prophets you keep speaking of?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello again wondering,

A person commits evil sin by disobeying God's Commandments such as "You shall not bear false witness" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 19:18) which refers to "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16, one of the Ten Commandments). Your "You pick words out instead of reading entire chapters" is an outright lie because God has had me read the entire Bible with God-given understanding.

Bible chapter and verse designations were added long after the original manuscripts were penned, so, while chapter and verse are useful, your priority on chapter islands instead of concepts the Word of God propounds inside and/or outside the boundaries of a chapter illuminates your inability to understand Scripture. God has me here proclaiming to you that the Christ does things like maintains the Old Testament's concept recorded in Exodus 20:16 as a New Testament concept for the life of a Christian in Christ.

The Word of God says "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" (Matthew 23:13). As a reminder, you scribed "You pick words out instead of reading entire chapters", but then in your same post, you quoted a single verse of John 11:45 as your free-will proof. You accused me in your self same post that you did the very thing that you accused me - that is hypocrisy, and Jesus used a very strong word against such hypocrisy.



The Word of God conclusively declares the concept of "no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6), so the Word of God excludes man, including you wondering, from coming to the Father because of your purported free-will - see that God alone is the cause. This dispenses of where you asked "What's the difference?".



Christ's words indicate precisely the same result:

​

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself​

(John 12:32)​

​

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me.​

(John 14:6)​

​

Neither Word of God statement attributes coming to God as being under the control of man's purported free-will.

Both Word of God statements attribute coming to God as exclusively under the control of God.



You convey "GOD NEITHER CAUSES nor chooses, based on NOTHING, to come to God because it does not state this".

You wrote "Because it does not state this", and you used the word indicating "cause" - just look at the first word from your quoted statement right there.

So, your thoughts can be restated accurately as "Jesus not saying that God causes people to come to God in John 14:6 IS THE CAUSE of God not causing people to come to God".

See how your "because" is the same thing as "IS THE CAUSE".

Lord Jesus used the word "because" in the Word of God "no one comes to the Father except because of Me (John 14:6).

So, this Word of God can be restated accurately as "I exclusively AM THE CAUSE of every single person's coming to God" (per John 14:6)

Now, your diametrically opposite concept to the Word of God is evident because Jesus conveys "I exclusively AM THE CAUSE of every person who comes to God" (per John 14:6), yet you convey "Jesus not saying that God causes people to come to God in John 14:6 IS THE CAUSE of God not causing people to come to God".

Praise Lord Jesus for His lovingkindness, that God causes us children of God to come to God! Praise God for God's strong right arm saving us unworthy depraved wretches from the wrath of God - to God be all the glory!!!

This Christ founded concept "God causes man to come to God" occurs in more than just John 14:6. The Lord also says it where Jesus says every good deed (including the deed of practicing the Truth and the deed of coming to God) of every Christian is exclusively caused by God with “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); in other words, every Christian's good deeds are not caused by the Christian, but, rather, every Christian's good deeds are caused by God to the glory of God (John 15:8)!



The Apostle John does NOT state that their "saw" was the "reason" (aka "cause") of their "believing" in his blessed testimony of "Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him", and John certainly did not attribute this "believing" to free-will because John knew the Word of God attributes their "believing" to the act of God with "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your thoughts extend to mean that not only is their "believing" caused by their "saw" but also because they "came to Mary" which puts you in the "not by Christ alone" camp.

You inquired "Could you please give a source?", yet God caused me to address that very question before you asked in the post to which you replied:

​

The linguistic examination of because in John 14:6, above, demonstrates that the Author and Perfecter of the faith, Jesus Christ, the Founder of Christianity, says 1,500 years-ish before Luther and Calvin were born that God exclusively causes persons of God's choosing to come to God (John 14:6).​

​

Lord Jesus Christ is the only source that matters, wondering.



Words matter, for thus says the Word "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be damned" (Matthew 12:37).

An uninvolved innocent bystander received an immediately fatal gunshot wound to the back of his head with the first shot of a surprise battle between rival gangs at the crowded loud shopping mall food court. Some bystanders waiting in line for food with their backs to the escalating violence across the food court were not aware of the battle until it was over.

The dead bystanderer did not accept the gunshot fatal wound. The dead bystander did not have time to accept the fatal gunshot wound. The dead bystander received the fatal gunshot wound, and he died immediately.

You lied in your post's opening word, and now you lie about the concept that the word "receive" defines when you wrote "If you RECEIVE something, it means you ACCEPTED it"!

Receive does not mean accept, nor does accept mean receive. A dictionary is necessary for you; otherwise, you end up with "worship in vain" (Matthew 15:9).

Receive conceptualizes an event that unavoidablely occurs from a source to a destination.

Since you do not receive the true meaning of "receive", then you fail to accurately receive the Apostle John's passage that you brought up in this exchange:

​

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God​

(John 1:12-13).​

​

continued to post #202

IT IS AGAINST FORUM TOS RULES TO USE DENIGRADING WORDS TOWARD OTHER MEMBERS.
PLEASE READ THE TOS TO WHICH YOU AGREED WHEN YOU JOINED THIS FORUM.
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS AGAIN.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.
THANKS.

 

[GodsGrace]

continued from post #201



The Word of God says:

​

he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God​

(Lord Jesus Christ John 3:21)​

​

The practice is a deed which is wrought in God.

The come is a deed which is wrought in God.

You convey "he who practices the truth as having been wrought in him comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God", so your conveyance is unlike Lord Christ's conveyance.

Lord Jesus conveys that he who is in the Truth (John 14:6) - Jesus Christ - comes to the Light (John 1:4) - Jesus Christ (John 3:21)! The Word (John 1:14) - Jesus Christ - is MARVELOUS!!! All praise the name of Jesus Christ!!!



You convey that "I chose you refers to the Apostles" about the Word "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so in effect this means that your faith is that Jesus chose only the Apostles, and your conveyance is able to be compared to Scripture in order to test for truth or deceit regarding your conveyance.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Joseph was there when the Lord says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so Jesus says to Joseph "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, your "I chose you refers to the Apostles" exclusivity is proveably a lie according to Scripture.

You convey that you believe Jesus says "you Apostles but not Joseph did not choose Me, but I chose you Apostles but not Joseph" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), yet your conveyance is NOT what Jesus says.

In Truth (John 14:6), Lord Jesus Christ blesses all believers in all time with:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
• "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Do you care to explain your belief about the "choosing means something different in each one" in the passages?



You wrote "IF you can CHOOSE something, it means you have FREE WILL" - no Scripture ascribes man "FREE WILL" so man does not have "FREE WILL".

That statement of yours is absolutely false because there is no such thing as free-will. Here is the accurate rendering "IF you can CHOOSE something, it means you have WILL".

Now, as to what kind of "will" can a man have, let's continue.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

IMAGINE a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting through the curves.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to navigate the streets". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

On the other hand, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car" "engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, Free-willian Philosophers are talking about "detached" in reference to free-will, whether such philosophers like it or not.

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between Christ-image will salvation (Philippians 2:14) and self-will damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

I've said before Kermos, that you're all over the place with your posts, and I find it difficult to reply to them.

Would you care to explain the following:

Exodus 35:29
The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring material for all the work, which the Lord had commanded through Moses to be done, brought a freewill offering to the Lord.

 

[Kermos]

First of all, Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 are parallel accounts of the creation, Gen. 1 covers the whole week, Gen. 2 only focuses on Day 6 when the first man and the first woman were created in the Garden of Eden - which was NOT the whole earth! Then in Gen. 1:28, man and woman were to "fill the earth and subdue it;" in Gen. 2:24, man shall "leave his parents and join his wife". Therefore Adam was never meant to stay in the Garden with God forever. Adam was commissioned to expand Eden to the whole earth, that was the original plan! Jesus the Lamb was "slain BEFORE the foundation of the earth", that does NOT contradict the historical and biblical fact that he was crucified at about AD/CE 30, that indicates Jesus was NOT a plan B, he was in the original plan!

You reiterated the point of the post to which you replied, that is, Jesus was NOT Plan B.

You just flipped right back to the original post's bullet item:

• Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
  
  SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
  
  AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
  
  AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Job 42:2,
  Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 46:11)
  
  THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
  
  SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
  
  THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
  
  SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
  
  THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will.

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Grailhunter]

You reiterated the point of the post to which you replied, that is, Jesus was NOT Plan B.

You just flipped right back to the original post's bullet item:

• Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
  
  SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
  
  AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
  
  AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Job 42:2,
  Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 46:11)
  
  THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
  
  SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
  
  THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
  
  SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
  
  THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will.

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

Free-will is what makes it all make sense.

The robot human thing is science fiction and portrays God as a monstrous puppet master.

The Apostles would be screaming in their graves, "What kinda fool thing are they coming up with now!"

 

[Mr. G Lee]

An Apostle is someone who is sent.
BUT
There has to be a distinction made between the FIRST APOSTLES and those that are sent afterwards.
We call them missionaries today.
Words are important to understand what a person is speaking of.
We cannot make up our own meanings for words.
This is the last I'll speak about this.

Its apostles sent out as missionaries even today .The meaning of the words of God do not change
The distinction is between the first Abel and and the last John as far a new revelation recorded as a witness But apostles are still sent out with the perfect in a hope of making disciples of men as new apostles sent with the gospel.

We are all laborers for God....
We are not Apostles.

The laborers in that section are apostles (sent ones)

This does not state that Abel was a prophet, but that from Abel to Zechariah there is blood spilled of the righteous persons on earth.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Rehab a sent one., Deborah a sent one. Moses etc . Never a Highly Venerable One as if God was served by the dying hand of mankind

I don't know what you mean.
An angel is a messenger from God.
And who are these false prophets you keep speaking of?

A true apostles is one sent having been given a desire to share the gospel as a messenger. Some exchanged the word "messenger" for "angel" a fake word needed to develop a legion of disembodied workers gods with a familiar spirits today call patron saints. They use the legion of fathers as false apostles as if the legion was the one good manner. Our Father (one) Hoping many repetitions will change the matter

Mathew 6: 7-12 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (one) Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Saul and John baptist did get inneed of least teacher of heaven just children of reborn in heaven didn't kill it love least religions dark sayings when washing toe to head with leavened soap bewitching flesh rules like to boost away from home till mind flooded with flesh observations of wife of law husdands Graves.

Not sure what you are trying to say?

What is meant by the mix of John and Saul?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi thanks for the reply .I would offer.

Material thing were created good. . . today, fools gold

Christ is our golden good God working in dying mankind under a curse. . the appointment death never to rise God is not a man .

I would call it the doctrine of golden good

Satan teaches natural mankind that God is a man . . .a creation. The father of lies .satan needs form to send out false apostles false prophets (oral traditons of dying mankind) as he did with Peter in Matthew 16 using Peter to rebuke our good God

The wrath of God comes against that kind of idea that we need to worship the things seen Jesus, the Son of man but not the unseen Holy Father

(purple) my offering as a understanding .

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (son of man Jesus) more than the Creator,(our unsern Holy Father). who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Jesus the Son of man I would think would never attempt to rob the Holy Father of his unseen golden glory that will become sight in the new heavens and earth . Jesus in order to show the work of two walking together as one. . reflected the golden glory of the Holy Father Jesus seen was not the source .He reflected it as the moon reflects the Sun . In the new heavens and earth no Sun or moon no darkness as night

Mark 10:16-18King James Version And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.1 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Only God uses the term good as in perfect or complete (Creator and it was good. ) The signature of Him not seen. . At the end all six days they were declared as very or perfectly complete (good)

Interestingly during the time when he was working he declared Gold a rudiment of this word as the same kind of good . it would seem the golden measure of faith hidden from sight . . revealed within the Book of prophecy the Bible, the living word of our Holy Father .

Follow the good gold look for the hidden manna. below a beautiful gospel parable

Deuteronomy 31 24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,(sola scriptura) That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

Nonetheless, we’re called to steward this “fool’s gold” as God’s representatives as long as possible, and a good steward cares about this world more than anybody else, throw in the towel and fantasize about the next world is not an option. If God is golden good, then you leave that to him and trust him.

 

[Grailhunter]

And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles: Luke 6:13
This scripture is more or less the biblical definition of an Apostle. Yeshua had disciples but of them He picked 12 and “named” them as Apostles. So an Apostle has to be some one that Yeshua personally named as apostles and personally taught the Gospel. The scriptures made a distinction between Apostles, disciples, and prophets.

And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. 26 Then they cast lots, and Matthias was selected to become an apostle with the other eleven. 26 They then drew straws. Matthias won and was counted in with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26
After Yeshua had ascended to His Father Yahweh this was the process of selecting an Apostle and it was done by Apostles.

Even Paul had to contend with these definitions of what defines an Apostle.

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, Romans 1:1

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 1st Corinthians 9:1-2

The distinguishing marks of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs, wonders, and miracles. 2nd Corinthians 12:12

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15
And these are not Apostles. In our new age we have self proclaimed Apostles that preach a corrupt version of the Gospels that includes Calvinism, OSAS, and Universalism, and a mix of Christian beliefs with Wiccan spiritualism.

The reason for a closed definition of an Apostle is to preserve the true Gospel heard by men from Yeshua’s own lips.

 

[Kermos]

No, the idea that Adam was morally-innocent prior to the Fall does not mean that he acted to defy the command of God "in order to convert to evil." Nowhere in the Genesis account of the Fall, or anywhere else in Scripture, is it said that Adam was motivated by a desire to become evil in his choice to eat the Forbidden Fruit.

The post to which you replied does not convey "Adam was motivated by a desire to become evil in his choice to eat the Forbidden Fruit", so you inject strange sayings where your thoughts do not belong.

The Timeline Of Adam Eating The Fruit - Marking Chronological Milestones​

I'm going to do an exercise in chronological time dilation with "she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6), and I'm going to use present tense for illustrative purposes. The actions of Adam and Eve may not be the precisely accurate, but it serves for illustrative purposes.

TIME MARK ALEPH: Eve takes of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK BEYT: Eve swings her arm toward her mouth as her mouth is opening to take a eat.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK GIMAL: Eve bites and eats the fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK DALET: Eve extends her hand containing the fruit toward Adam's hand.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK HEY: Adam receives the fruit in his hand, and Eve withdraws her hand.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK VAV: Adam swings his hand with the fruit in it 25% of the way to his mouth.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK ZAYIN: Adam continues swinging his hand with the fruit in it, and now he has it 50% of the way to his mouth, and Adam is fully aware of God's command not to eat of the fruit (Genesis 2:16-17).

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK CHET: Adam gets the forbidden fruit to 75% of the way to his mouth, and he starts opening his mouth in preparation to eat the forbidden fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK TET: Adam now has the forbidden fruit threee millimeters from his mouth, but the fruit has not touched his lips, teeth, nor tongue.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK YUD: Adam starts contracting his muscles to close his mouth around the forbidden fruit in order to eat the fruit, but his mouth is still not in contact with the fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK KAPH: Adam's mouth comes in contact with the fruit and he bites and he eats the forbidden fruit in disobedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17).

• The "Adam is evil" sudden contrajuxtaposition of the "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23), and Adam becomes aware that he is evil, that is, aware of his flesh (Genesis 3:7).

From TIME MARK VAV up to and including TIME MARK YUD, the precept of man defines Adam as good because he had not actually eaten the forbidden fruit, yet the intent to eat of the fruit was in his heart.

Of benefit, the Word of God says wrong desire of the heart is sufficient for sin to occur (Matthew 5:28).

This chronological time dilation illustration represents a valuable spiritual truth. Adam was not good before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because if Adam had been good then Adam would have obeyed God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

A couple of intructional points from the creation account are:

• left to his own devices, man defies God
• man fell out of ignorance about being evil in his flesh

Perhaps God will bring me back to reply to more of your post, or God might have me move on to others.

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own innate power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15).

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind

SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will.

This is distorted logic. There's no such "thens" and "therefores", just because Adam had free will doesn't mean he would always act upon it all the time. Adam was not a robot, he definitely had a free will, but it was WEAK. He relayed God's command to Eve and made it even stricter - don't even touch it (Gen. 3:2-3); but when Eve gave him the forbidden fruit, he took it and ate it (Gen. 3:6), afterwards he blamed God for creating Eve for him (Gen. 3:12), even though he initially rejoiced when he received her (Gen. 2:23), this shows his weakness and cowardice. Knowledge is power, with great power comes great responsibility, and Adam couldn't take responsibility, he wasn't mature enough to handle the knowledge of good and evil, that's why he was not allowed to eat from the tree, this wasn't an issue of free will. You made it too complicated.