Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Hopeful 2]

Heb 10:29 you quote defeats your own point, such a person may know ABOUT Jesus, but does NOT know him intimately and personally. If he did, and the blood were applied, how could he counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing - or "a common thing" in other translations?

Lots of posers have been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, but without a true repentance from sin, the baptism is just a bath.
Those who continue on in sin show no respect for the Lord's sanctifying blood.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you truly loved and cared about someone, you wouldn't offend,, neglect, or break promises in our relationships with others.

This is why I said I don't believe you. No one is that perfect, we all make mistakes like these, we may offend others when we are caught up in the heat of the moment; we may neglect others when we're preoccupied with our own stuffs, we break promises when we overestimate our capability by making such a promise we can't keep.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is why I said I don't believe you.

Some didn't believe Jesus either, so I am in good company.

No one is that perfect,

Was Jesus, our role model, perfect ?
Yes, He was.

we all make mistakes like these, we may offend others when we are caught up in the heat of the moment; we may neglect others when we're preoccupied with our own stuffs, we break promises when we overestimate our capability by making such a promise we can't keep.

You define non-Christians and men walking in the flesh, instead of in the Spirit, perfectly.
Lovers of God don't offend others, or neglect others for personal gain.
We don't break promises, because we don't tell lies.
The devil is the father of those who use lies.
The Father of Christians is God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is more to it than just that in most dictionaries.
How about consecrated, atoned for, blessed, cleansed, and made holy ?
Those words describe every man who has shed the flesh and is walking in the Spirit.
They describe every man who has repented of sin and been washed of past sins by the blood of Christ.

I never denied any of these, all I suggested is that this is a journey of a life time, not a one and done deal. Didn't Paul ask us to offer ourselves as a DAILY sacrifice? Didn't he mention that he had finished the race? That's not immediate. All these early churches had their own problems, to which Paul responded with those letters in the canonical bible. If they were cleansed of all sins, why did they still have all these problems?

Lots of posers have been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, but without a true repentance from sin, the baptism is just a bath.
Those who continue on in sin show no respect for the Lord's sanctifying blood.

Yes, it's just a bath, an initiation ritual that simulates the childbirth process, what else do you think it is? "True repentance from sin" demands a real encounter with Jesus, it requires our denial of ourselves and acceptance of our Lord, and as I said, that's not a one and done deal. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves." 1 Jn. 1:8.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Some didn't believe Jesus either, so I am in good company.

Was Jesus, our role model, perfect ?
Yes, He was.

You define non-Christians and men walking in the flesh, instead of in the Spirit, perfectly.
Lovers of God don't offend others, or neglect others for personal gain.
We don't break promises, because we don't tell lies.
The devil is the father of those who use lies.
The Father of Christians is God.

I believe in Jesus our role model, I don't beleive you never offend, neglect or break promises. In fact, if you really think of Jesus as our role model, you would've known that He "offended" the religious elites all the time, never acquiesed just to get along. Also, go read the sections of his own trial, he neglected all those made up charges on purpose, he kept in silence, didn't respond to any of those or reason with any of his accusers.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I never denied any of these, all I suggested is that this is a journey of a life time, not a one and done deal.

Too bad.
The false doctrine of gradual sanctification is a death sentence.
Nobody who adheres to it ever becomes totally clean.
They are all perpetually mired in uncleanness.

Didn't Paul ask us to offer ourselves as a DAILY sacrifice?

Yes, something the unclean cannot do.

Didn't he mention that he had finished the race? That's not immediate.

It was an allusion to his impending death in Rome.
Not to his conversion, or acceptability to God.

All these early churches had their own problems, to which Paul responded with those letters in the canonical bible. If they were cleansed of all sins, why did they still have all these problems?

I am glad to see you can tell what is a problem, and problems Paul tried to correct.
If the churches had failed to correct them, it would have been proof of their non-acceptance of God as their leader.

Yes, it's just a bath, an initiation ritual that simulates the childbirth process, what else do you think it is?

To the false Christian, a bath is all it is.
But to those actually crucified with Christ, it is the ultimate submission to God.
Baptism is the means of the destruction of the old man before being raise with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4,6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
That happens at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)

"True repentance from sin" demands a real encounter with Jesus, it requires our denial of ourselves and acceptance of our Lord, and as I said, that's not a one and done deal.

Are you not glad you have free will to accept our Lord ? (as the OP is concerned)

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves." 1 Jn. 1:8.

Written by John about those who walk in the darkness.
Besides not being able to say they have no sin, neither can they say they have fellowship with God.
Other verses of 1 John refer to those who walk in the light.
They have confessed their sins and been washed of all sin by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin, and that they have fellowship with God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I believe in Jesus our role model, I don't beleive you never offend, neglect or break promises. In fact, if you really think of Jesus as our role model, you would've known that He "offended" the religious elites all the time, never acquiesed just to get along.

Did He need to apologize ?
No.
Truth needs no apology.

Also, go read the sections of his own trial, he neglected all those made up charges on purpose, he kept in silence, didn't respond to any of those or reason with any of his accusers.

Fulfilling prophesy was part of His mission.
It is written..."The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:" (Isa 53:7, Acts 8:32)

 

[Iconoclast]

Since Jesus told them to not sin anymore then Jesus thinks they can stop sinning. There isn't a good reason why he would directly tell them to stop if it weren't possible.

You do not understand God's holiness to think you are sinless.

Cite my sin.

You don't even know me.

Does God reside in a polluted temple ?
No, and neither will He reside in a polluted vessel.

If we are not bound by something, why act like we are bound ?
Jesus said the truth would free you from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
Be free !

Or don't you know the truth that Jesus was referring to ?

You men are badly deceived and do not understand salvation properly. We are twice instructed to mortify sin, because it was still there.

 

[Iconoclast]

Too bad.
The false doctrine of gradual sanctification is a death sentence.
Nobody who adheres to it ever becomes totally clean.
They are all perpetually mired in uncleanness.

Yes, something the unclean cannot do.

It was an allusion to his impending death in Rome.
Not to his conversion, or acceptability to God.

I am glad to see you can tell what is a problem, and problems Paul tried to correct.
If the churches had failed to correct them, it would have been proof of their non-acceptance of God as their leader.

To the false Christian, a bath is all it is.
But to those actually crucified with Christ, it is the ultimate submission to God.
Baptism is the means of the destruction of the old man before being raise with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4,6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
That happens at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)

Are you not glad you have free will to accept our Lord ? (as the OP is concerned)

Written by John about those who walk in the darkness.
Besides not being able to say they have no sin, neither can they say they have fellowship with God.
Other verses of 1 John refer to those who walk in the light.
They have confessed their sins and been washed of all sin by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin, and that they have fellowship with God.

I doubt anyone who says what you do knows the Lord and his word.

 

[Runningman]

You do not understand God's holiness to think you are sinless.

You men are badly deceived and do not understand salvation properly. We are twice instructed to mortify sin, because it was still there.

Jesus didn’t mince words my friend. He said go and sin no more and I am saying go and sin no more. If I copy the teachings Jesus received from his God, why do you say I am deceived?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Too bad.
The false doctrine of gradual sanctification is a death sentence.
Nobody who adheres to it ever becomes totally clean.
They are all perpetually mired in uncleanness.

You're conflating salvation, justification, sancification and spiritual maturity. As I said, for some people the seed of gospel sprout up immediately, but no one bears fruit immediately; also, yield varies from person to person. Your dualistic view of "saints and ain'ts" only apply to the next life where your name is either written on the Book of Life or not, but not this life.

Yes, something the unclean cannot do.

Only God gets to decide who's clean and who's unclean, not you.

It was an allusion to his impending death in Rome.
Not to his conversion, or acceptability to God.

His conversion was the start, not the end.

I am glad to see you can tell what is a problem, and problems Paul tried to correct.
If the churches had failed to correct them, it would have been proof of their non-acceptance of God as their leader.

Yes, and they will fail, five out of seven, including the Ephesian chruch. This is why the Lord himself declared at the end of each of the seven letters to the seven churches: "he who has an ear, let him hear!"

To the false Christian, a bath is all it is.
But to those actually crucified with Christ, it is the ultimate submission to God.
Baptism is the means of the destruction of the old man before being raise with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4,6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
That happens at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)

Are you not glad you have free will to accept our Lord ? (as the OP is concerned)

This "submission" requires intentional and mindful effort, otherwise we just submit to our own autopilot mode, like everybody else.

Written by John about those who walk in the darkness.
Besides not being able to say they have no sin, neither can they say they have fellowship with God.
Other verses of 1 John refer to those who walk in the light.
They have confessed their sins and been washed of all sin by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin, and that they have fellowship with God

Those who walk in darkness don't believe sin exists, we're all born sinless, it's the fault of the world, the society or our own parents. A true follower of Christ is highly aware of their sin when being scrutizied in the light of Christ. Paul spoke of his struggle in Rom. 7, why did he if he were supposedly in fellowship with God and washed of all sins by the blood? Why was he still a wretched man?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Did He need to apologize ?
No.
Truth needs no apology.

"What is truth?" - Pontius Pilate.

Fulfilling prophesy was part of His mission.
It is written..."The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:" (Isa 53:7, Acts 8:32)

You know, there's a difference between "ignore" and "neglect". "Ignore" is intentional, "neglect" is unintentional as a result of forgetfulness, distraction or fear. Therefore if you neglect somebody or something, you wouldn't have known it at the moment.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, you're the most confusing reformed person I know.
I asked you why God would command us to do something that HE is going to decree anyway - so why ask US to behave - and the above is your reply.

You state that everything that comes to pass is decreed to come to pass.
RIGHT.

THEN you state that because it is decreed to come to pass DOES NOT mean that God caused it to come to pass
and that I conflate these two things.

First, could we establish what religion you're following?
I don't think it's the reformed faith. Sounds like something you yourself might have invented.

This is part of how I see you just do not know yet.

If God DECREES everything that comes to pass and it DOES come to pass IT MEANS THAT GOD CAUSED IT TO HAPPEN. There is no other explanation.

God is sovereign. Isn't this what you believe?
If God is sovereign in the way you understand, then everything God decrees will come to pass because God has so decreed !

Without going further - explain that away if you don't agree with what I just stated.



Why are we discussing Judas?
Why do the reformed always turn to the crucifixtion?

Judas was an example, you do not grasp it......he was not made to sin

OF COURSE the crucifixion was planned!
Every born again believer knows this.
God planned this from the beginning of time knowing that Adam would fail.

Here again you brush over the verse that answers your question. You do not read carefully. What was planned was that wicked men were used to sin against Jesus but it accomplished God's design.

Just like brightfame52 refuses to exegete verses I give him,
I MUST insist that we not discuss something we agree on for YOU to try to explain what Calvin has taught me to try to explain away concepts that all Christians agree on.

Could we please keep to the Institutes, or one of the confessions and what THEY teach?
Thanks.



We agree. Wasted time.


Well then, who forces those that sin IF it is GOD that decrees everything that happens?

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH 1684:

Chapter 3:
1. From before the beginning of time, God has decided and put into place everything that happens. He makes these decisions freely by His wise and holy will. Nothing He’s put into place can change.
Can you reconcile what you state with the above statement from the WCF?
Maybe it's not ME that doesn't understand??



I don't state feeling. When someone says I FEEL it means I BELIEVE. That's just plain English.
I don't attach and I don't create strawmen.
When I state that the reformed religion is confused...that's what I mean.
No strawmen needed.



So, again, you miss the point.
WHY give a COMMAND, IF it is GOD that is going to decree whether or not you follow that command?
I'm not asking you, I'm trying to make you see how the above makes no common sense.

If God is giving you commands from the bible,
it means you have the free will to either choose to obey or choose not to obey.
Any other explanation means that GOD CAUSES SIN.
This is impossible.
God does not cause sin.

Now, the WCF may state that God is not the author of sin,

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus didn’t mince words my friend. He said go and sin no more and I am saying go and sin no more. If I copy the teachings Jesus received from his God, why do you say I am deceived?

You sin everyday.

 

[Runningman]

You sin everyday.

Do you believe you can stop sinning like Jesus believes people can?

 

[Randy]

Adam disobeyed God so it wasn't God's Will he followed.
If the tempter had control of Adams Will why the need for the crafty deception?

That leaves a Adam who was in control of his own will. He was not bound.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering



It doesnt matter what makes sense to you when the scriptures are concerned, you should bow to it. God decreed that Pharoah would disobey Him in not letting the people go from egypt, yet He commanded him to let them go.

How do you explain this?
There are many mysteries in the reformed faith...
This is because statements such as the one you've made above have no explanation.
God has intelligence, common sense, and wisdom.
To some degree He did make us in His image.
It seems to me it should be possible to actually understand salvation.

So, yes, I believe the bible SHOULD MAKE SENSE to us if we're to believe it.
If some want to believe in concepts that make no sense, then that's up to them.

I would like to repeat that there is no reason for God to give any commands throughout the bible,
IF, in the end, it's all up to HIM to decree what we are to do or not do.

 

[GodsGrace]

ok

not sure you get it yet.

1] ordained

2] decreed

3] predestined

You think these words are all one and the same. They are not. I have posted this to you 5 or 6x now, but the fact you repost them shows you are not reading carefully. You think you are, but you are not.

Let's see if we can get somewhere....
What do the words mean?
ORDAINED
DECREED
PREDESTINATED

Here is the exact example I tried to illustrate when I threw water in your face....it was ordained to happen, but not caused by God. That is the same as saying. God created the universe.so, God is the direct cause of sin, because if he did not create, it would not exist, so you look to blame God.

If God ordains something to happen, how would it not happen?
If God says something will happen, I believe He's sovereign enough to make it happen.

You do not understand it. Your opinion is not speaking for reformed Christians.

No, I have been in the mainstream all of my Christian life.

Yes, he was correct. we are unprofitable servants

The man with the withered hand could not obey and stretch forth His hand unless God enabled him to.

Predestination has not been abandoned, but rather understood correctly and not mangled as you try and do to it.
Believers are predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son. Anyone who does not believe this is an unbeliever, plain and simple.

Every Christian believes your last sentence. We all believe that man was predestined to be conformed to be in the image of the Son.

No other denominations believes that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.

Correct....That is why i tried to use the example of Judas, betraying Jesus. Judas was not forced to do it as you suggest by not seeing it. When Jesus said he was going to be betrayed, Judas did not say...I will never do such a thing, and then angels forced him to do it despite his protests. Instead of getting the example, you said...why are we talking about Judas??? That is why I say you need to slow down, and re-read things so you do not miss it.

Which you agreed with opening this response!

Yes indeed.

God does not force anyone to sin at any time. Sinners sin, and are fully responsible for their own sinful self will.
Sinners will sin until glorified in heaven.

So you don't believe God predestines everything?

 

[Iconoclast]

The difference between God ordaining what comes to pass and God making a decree about what happens is a subtle one. According to the Westminster Confession, God has “freely and immutably ordained whatsoever comes to pass” 1. This means that everything that happens in the world is a result of God’s sovereign will and plan.

On the other hand, making a decree about what happens is more like a command or an order. When God makes a decree, He is issuing a directive or a proclamation about what should happen 2. For example, when God decreed that the Israelites should observe the Sabbath, He was giving them a commandment to follow 3.

In essence, both concepts are related to God’s sovereignty and control over the world. However, ordaining what comes to pass is more about God’s overarching plan for the world, while making a decree is more about specific commands or directives that God gives to His people.

I hope this helps clarify the difference between these two concepts.

The answer is found in the fact that although God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, he causes the bringing of those things to pass in widely different ways. He does not cause the bringing to pass of the actions of personal beings in the same way as the way in which he causes the bringing to pass of events in the physical world.

In essence, God ordains things by having a plan for the world and allowing events to unfold according to His will. However, He also gives humans the freedom to make choices and decisions that can affect the course of history.

 

[Iconoclast]

f wicked actions of wicked men have a place in God’s plan, if they are foreordained of God, then is man responsible for them, and is not God the author of sin?

To each of these questions the Bible returns a very unequivocal answer. Yes, man is responsible for his wicked actions; and no, God is not the author of sin.

That man is responsible for his wicked actions is made so plain from the beginning of the Bible to the end that it is quite useless to cite individual proof texts. But it is equally clear in the Bible that God is not the author of sin. That is clear from the very nature of sin, as rebellion against God’s holy law. It is also expressly taught. “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God,’” says the Epistle of James, “for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire” (James 1:13–14).

How, then, can we meet the difficulty? We have said that God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. The sinful actions of sinful men are things that come to pass. Yet we deny that God is the author of them and we put the responsibility for them upon man.

How can we possibly do that? Are we not involving ourselves in hopeless contradiction?

Why No Contradiction?

The answer is found in the fact that although God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, he causes the bringing of those things to pass in widely different ways. He does not cause the bringing to pass of the actions of personal beings in the same way as the way in which he causes the bringing to pass of events in the physical world. That is true even of the good actions of men who are his children. Even when God causes those men to do certain things by the gracious influence of his Holy Spirit, he does not deal with them as with sticks or stones, but he deals with them as with men. He does not cause them to do those things against their will, but he determines their will, and their freedom as persons is fully preserved when they perform those acts. The acts remain their acts, even though they are led to do them by the Spirit of God.

When God causes the bringing to pass of the evil actions of men, he does that in still a different way. He does not tempt the men to sin; he does not influence them to sin. But he causes the bringing to pass of those deeds by the free and responsible choices of personal beings. He has created those beings with the awful gift of freedom of choice. The things that they do in exercise of that gift are their acts. They do not, indeed, surprise God by the doing of them; their doing of them is part of his eternal plan; yet in the doing of them they, and not the holy God, are responsible.

Yes, God has told us much. Is it surprising that he has not told us all?

What is the real difficulty here? Is it the difficulty of harmonizing the free will of the creature with the certainty of the creature’s actions as part of God’s eternal purpose? No, I do not think that is the real difficulty. The real difficulty is the difficulty of seeing how a good and all-powerful God ever could have allowed sin to enter the world that he had created. That difficulty faces not only the consistent and truly biblical view of the divine decree which we have tried to summarize this afternoon, but it also faces the inconsistent views that we have rejected. It can never be used, therefore, as an argument in favor of any one of those inconsistent views and against the consistent view.

For both, the problem remains. How could a holy God, if he is all-powerful, have permitted the existence of sin?

What shall we do with the problem? I am afraid we shall have to do with it something that is not very pleasing to our pride; I am afraid we shall just have to say that it is insoluble.

Is it so surprising that there are some things that we do not know? God has told us much. He has told us much even about sin. He has told us how at infinite cost, by the gift of his Son, he has provided a way of escape from it. Yes, God has told us much. Is it surprising that he has not told us all? I do not think so, my friends. After all, we are but finite creatures. Is it surprising that there are some mysteries which God in his infinite goodness and wisdom has hidden from our eyes? Is it surprising that there are some things in his counsels about which he has bidden us be content not to know but instead just to trust him who knows all?

This post is adapted from J. Gresham Machen, What is Predestination, (Philadelphia, PA: Westminster Seminary Press, 2017), 39–42. Used with permission of the publisher.