Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Runningman]

If you want God's will to be done, shouldn't you be doing God's will ?

I agree. Let’s do God’s will based on our decisions and I’m doing it. I would be completely surprised with a bad verdict. Not saying I am perfect of course, but I am a repentant man and pursuing righteousness sincerely. I just don’t agree with Calvinism’s perspective.

 

[Iconoclast]

Show me the words he used to make that proclamation.

You have a reading problem, I will show it here.

He made it clear he was no longer in the flesh in Rom 7:5,

He is describing to Christians where we have come from;
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
They are still in a non glorified body of flesh, that are to mortify. The are not totally dominated by the flesh.

(so must be walking in the Spirit):

It is not either or...you are capable of bringing forth fruit of the Spitit, but also fruit of the flesh.

and he wrote how the flesh had been destroyed in Rom 6:6,

The old man was co crucified with Christ, but we are still in a body of flesh.

and he wrote how we are freed from the "law of sin" in Rom 8:2

He is speaking of that which leads to second death

So are you really saying that a man who has crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), walks in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, (Rom 8:9),

Romans 8:9 is speaking of being indwelt by the Spirit

and has been freed from the law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, still struggles with sin ?
I pray not !

Paul said this;
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. This is as a saved Apostle. The unsaved, do not serve the Lord.

Though temptation still abounds, Christians are equipt to resist them.
Thank God for the new creature's new divine nature, and for the gift of the Holy Ghost !

It will be better when you learn the truth

 

[Iconoclast]

If that’s the truth then I guess I’m going to hell, but to clarify I don’t believe you. May God’s will be done. I hope you all enjoy the kingdom. However, I’m sure God will grant me eternal life. Let’s leave it up to the Judge.

I did not ask you to believe me, but rather to believe the scriptures.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You are writing illogically.
If I never committed a sin until I was 7, there was no guilt in me until 7 years after my birth.
Why are you so insistent on making babies out to be worthy of the second death ?

As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Please tell me, why was this man born blind? Was he supposed to be worthy of the second death? Sin is NOT a behavior, it's in human nature, and according to the Lord himself, it doesn;t matter whether it's you own or other people's, what matters is the need for salvation.

Then why write that they will be guilty of anything Adam did ?
You are sure of their condemnation, or you would quit trying to make me see them as guilty of Adams's sin.

Because the Lord said so:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The seed determines the fruit.
People, and their fruit, are of either the tare's seed or the wheat's seed, parabolically.
The reborn were once the fruit of tares bringing forth more fruit of tares.
But after they have been reborn of wheat seed, they can't bring forth the tare's fruit any more.

Seed of wheat comes from the Lord, seed of tares comes from the devil, the people is different kinds of SOIL, aka mission field. You're still arguing with wrong presupposition that people themselves are seeds.

 

[Runningman]

I did not ask you to believe me, but rather to believe the scriptures.

Let's believe all of the scripture presented before us. Take into mind the local and remote context of everything said. If you can accept that God told us to do something because He expects our actual obedience then that's a good start. The Bible repeatedly tells us to avoid sin from cover to cover. If God is ordaining our sin then the easiest way to say so is to do so explicitly. There are no explicit declarations in the Bible that clearly say free will is an illusion. If free will is an illusion then it isn't obvious or intuitive based on what the scriptures plainly say.

So let's believe the Bible. I feel optimism in my spirit that this verse will encourage you.

John 7
17If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether My teaching is from God or whether I speak on My own.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree. Let’s do God’s will based on our decisions and I’m doing it. I would be completely surprised with a bad verdict. Not saying I am perfect of course, but I am a repentant man and pursuing righteousness sincerely.

Why not say you're perfect ?
As your bank balance, and untied shoes, and dirty windshield, won't matter a whit on the day of judgement, concentrate on being perfect in those things that will matter.

I just don’t agree with Calvinism’s perspective.

Me either.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let's believe all of the scripture presented before us. Take into mind the local and remote context of everything said. If you can accept that God told us to do something because He expects our actual obedience then that's a good start. The Bible repeatedly tells us to avoid sin from cover to cover. If God is ordaining our sin then the easiest way to say so is to do so explicitly. There are no explicit declarations in the Bible that clearly say free will is an illusion.

There is not one verse that says free will exists, so what are you even posting about?

If free will is an illusion then it isn't obvious or intuitive based on what the scriptures plainly say.

So let's believe the Bible. I feel optimism in my spirit that this verse will encourage you.

John 7
17If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether My teaching is from God or whether I speak on My own.

 

[Runningman]

There is not one verse that says free will exists, so what are you even posting about?

John 8
11“No one, Lord,” she answered.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

 

[Hopeful 2]

You have a reading problem, I will show it here.
He is describing to Christians where we have come from;

Correct, his past !

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
They are still in a non glorified body of flesh, that are to mortify. The are not totally dominated by the flesh.

Yep, parts of Romans 7 are a narrative of Paul's past while trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law.

It is not either or...you are capable of bringing forth fruit of the Spitit, but also fruit of the flesh.

Oh, but it is either/or !
With the old man of the flesh crucified with Christ, it cannot rear its ugly head again.

The old man was co crucified with Christ, but we are still in a body of flesh.

I walk in the Spirit, and after the Spirit.
Not the flesh.
The vessel is just the package of the Holy Spirit now.
It has no power to coerce me into anything my mind doesn't agree with.

He is speaking of that which leads to second death

He is speaking about that from Rom 7:23, which in the past controlled his actions.
Those sins would have indeed warranted the second death.

Romans 8:9 is speaking of being indwelt by the Spirit

I somehow inverted my question...
Here it is again properly worded...
"So are you really saying that a man who has crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), walks in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, (Rom 8:9),"
A man whose flesh has been destroyed cannot return to that flesh.

Paul said this;
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

But Rom 8:2 tells us what happened to that "law of sin".
We have been freed from it by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus !
It is no longer a factor in the Christians life !

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

That is a question he asked himself when he was still trying to keep the Law, part of the narrative.
It was already answered in Rom 6:6...it was destroyed !

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. This is as a saved Apostle. The unsaved, do not serve the Lord.

As he made it clear he is no longer in the flesh in Rom 7:5, and cited it again in Rom 7:18, we see that his new life walking in the Spirit has been achieved and his mind now calls the shots his flesh once made.
The narrative is over, and Paul wins !

It will be better when you learn the truth

Wouldn't that be the truth that Jesus said would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34 ?
Your truth seems to deny that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. Please tell me, why was this man born blind? Was he supposed to be worthy of the second death? Sin is NOT a behavior, it's in human nature, and according to the Lord himself, it doesn;t matter whether it's you own or other people's, what matters is the need for salvation.

He was born blind so God and His Son would be glorified.
The verse says there was no sin !

Because the Lord said so:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

They will be condemned for their own sins.
Not Adam's.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Seed of wheat comes from the Lord, seed of tares comes from the devil, the people is different kinds of SOIL, aka mission field. You're still arguing with wrong presupposition that people themselves are seeds.

You are blending parables with different meanings.

A seed can only bring forth after itself.
If we are born of God, we cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil's seed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is not one verse that says free will exists, so what are you even posting about?

Do you really want to say that ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Unfortunately for them, false/multiple repentances are just lies, to God.

Don't dismissively count them out, God has a habit of choosing the most unlikely candidates to do his work, such as Saul of Tarsus who brutally persecuted his people.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

He was born blind so God and His Son would be glorified.
The verse says there was no sin !

No, the verse says two things: first, it debunks the conventional belief that infirmities are God's judgement, his blindness is not a "divine retribution"; second, don't play the blame game like Adam and Eve did.

You are blending parables with different meanings.

A seed can only bring forth after itself.
If we are born of God, we cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil's seed.

I didn't. In both parables we're the mission field, in neither are we any kind of seed. The second one is not a condemnation, but the reality that there's no rest for the wicked, the devil always sows seeds of deception and division in God's mission field.

They will be condemned for their own sins.
Not Adam's.

I told you that as long as we're living in a fallen and sinful world, we're affected by sin, and you're just denying. You just keep denying. Your blank state idea comes from Nietzsche, not the bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 8
11“No one, Lord,” she answered.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

Nothing about the will being free.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Don't dismissively count them out, God has a habit of choosing the most unlikely candidates to do his work, such as Saul of Tarsus who brutally persecuted his people.

I pray for all every day.
I was once one of the most unGodly of them all.
But when I heard that I could walk faithfully, I jumped at the chance !

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the verse says two things: first, it debunks the conventional belief that infirmities are God's judgement, his blindness is not a "divine retribution";

Agreed.

second, don't play the blame game like Adam and Eve did.

Who and what have I blamed ?

I didn't. In both parables we're the mission field, in neither are we any kind of seed. The second one is not a condemnation, but the reality that there's no rest for the wicked, the devil always sows seeds of deception and division in God's mission field.

The "seed" is carried forth by the fruit.
We are God's seed's fruit.
Our fruit cannot be from another seed than God's.

I told you that as long as we're living in a fallen and sinful world, we're affected by sin, and you're just denying. You just keep denying. Your blank state idea comes from Nietzsche, not the bible.

The sins of others may affect life around us, but it doesn't have to change our ways.
It didn't change Jesus' ways.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nothing about the will being free.

Jesus gave the woman a choice.
Continue in adultery, or sin no more.
She had to choose one or the other.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Who and what have I blamed ?

Didn't you accuse me of suggesting that babies who pass away prematurely suffer the second death, while all I posted was that they go to Hades like the Lord himself. After that, whether they die a second death or not is not our business, and nor will any of us ever know, only God knows. Best - or worst case scenario, they are "gathered to their kins like Abraham", depending on whom their ancestors were - "Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. " (Gen. 25:8)

The "seed" is carried forth by the fruit.
We are God's seed's fruit.
Our fruit cannot be from another seed than God's.

This is he who received seed by the wayside ...
But he who received the seed on stony place ...
Now he who received seed among the thorns ...
But he who received seed on the good ground ...

We are the ground that RECEIVE the seed of the gospel. We ourselves are neither the seed nor the fruit. Stop contradicting the bible and making up stuffs, man.

The sins of others may affect life around us, but it doesn't have to change our ways.
It didn't change Jesus' ways.

Yes it does, at a perilous time such as this we have to take a stand, either fight the forces of darkness or join them. Many 501(c)(3) churches made their choice to keep their tax exemption status.