Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Iconoclast]

A friend of mine posted this;
FREE WILL?
Neither the will of God, nor the will of man is FREE from the confines of the nature of God or nature of man. The will of God and of man is simply the vehicle of expressing the deliberative processes within man or the purpose of God that manifests their thoughts or emotions or both. The will of God and the will of man are not independent of the nature of God or man but is simply the SERVANT of deliberations guided by the mind and heart of both man and God.
For example, the will of God is not free to sin! Why? Because the nature of God is IMMUTABLY HOLY and therefore it is not possible for God to choose to sin. Hence, the Scriptures say God CANNOT lie. He cannot choose anything contrary to his MORAL NATURE.
Adam prior to the fall was MUTABLY HOLY and therefore could choose to do evil and did choose to do evil.
However, fallen man is IMMUTABLY DEPRAVED and cannot choose to do righteousness because his nature is immutably unholy and LOVES DARKNESS and HATES the light and neither cometh to the light. His mind is immutably at war with God and "is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed CAN BE."
Hence, when God looked down from heaven through time to see if ANY MAN would seek him he found NONE (Psa. 14:2-3; Rom. 3:9-12).
Hence, Jesus said "NO MAN CAN COME to me EXCEPT the Father draw him..." (Jn. 6:44). The Bible denies that fallen man has inherent ability to choose or to will to come to Christ by faith and yet Arminianism preaches the exact opposite.
It is the fact of this immutably depraved and unholy nature in fallen man that God can JUSTLY condemn them to hell as Jesus clearly told Nicodemus that they are "condemned already." Hence, Jesus did not have to come into the world to condemn anyone. So, hell is the JUST penalty for all fallen mankind and fallen mankind would rather burn than turn from their sins.
In direct contrast, election is UNTO salvation and is all of grace (Rom. 11:5) without which NO MAN WOULD BELIEVE in Christ but would go right on their way to hell FREELY choosing to rebel against God.

 

[Kermos]

Yes, you've demonstrated this repeatedly in your posts.

Why, thank you, Tenchi! I'm glad you saw that words are used for information transfer, so evil things can result when a person redefines a word.

As I've already demonstrated to you, "when" is not necessarily a term referring to a predetermined condition in the prophetic or theologically-deterministic sense. When I turn on the stove element and put my hand upon it when the element is red-hot, I will burn myself. This statement indicates mere cause and effect, a condition of reality under which, if nothing intervenes to mitigate or negate the condition, it is certain that I will burn my hand. But this is not a statement of prophecy like what is offered to us many times in John's Revelation. What John wrote MUST come to pass inasmuch as God has ordained that it will. But there is no divine, prophetic compulsion moving me to put my hand on a red-hot element. I WILL burn my hand only if I'm fool enough to choose to put it on a red-hot element. There is no divine, prophetic MUST in this statement, however. So, too, in Genesis 2:17, as I've already explained in an earlier post.

Your larger explanation details an if-then logic construct potential event occurrence which contradicts your example statement of an absolute event occurrence.

You demonstrated the evil adulteration to the Word of God to inject man's free-will that results when a person redefines a word - in this case the word "when" because the word "when" defines as "at the occurrence of an event" which indicates an event occurring with certainty.

Your explanation includes your redefinition of "when" into the word "if" when you wrote "if nothing intervenes to mitigate or negate the condition", so here is your sentence rewritten with the proper semantics for an uncertain event "if I turn on the stove element and put my hand upon it while the element is red-hot, then I will burn myself".

You explained an if-then logic construct, yet your statement of "When I turn on the stove element and put my hand upon it when the element is red-hot, I will burn myself" expresses a fixed event of you burning yourself. Your statement guarantees that you will burn yourself unless you are a liar.

With these definitive linguistics established, we find Word of God guaranteeing that Adam will eat of the forbidden tree with

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"
(Genesis 2:16-17)
​

See, Kermos? This is all assertion without supporting argument.

I've never said Bob is God, predicting future events with divine certainty. It is Begging the Question to declare that Bob should use "if" rather than "when" in his statements to Sam about the bear trap. He is not constrained by the terms themselves to do so, as I've shown. Only your peculiar constraints upon the terms would require such a thing.

See, Tenchi, that God does predict future events with divine certainty, yet the human Bob in your bear trap example cannot predict future events with divine certainty; therefore, your Bob bear trap example fails linguistically, and your Bob bear trap example fails as a comparative to God.

"God is not man, that he should lie" (Numbers 23:19), so the Word of God is sure that Adam will eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with "when in the day you are to eat of it" (Genesis 2:17).

This is called a "red herring." You might want to look up what this is.

Believers of human free-will use the "red herring" phrase as an escape clause, thus attempting to avoid a valid point. A demonstration is due, right here.

You claim that cross-referencing the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki - Strong's Hebrew: 3588 - for, that, when), which appears in Genesis 2:16-17, with other occurrences of the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki - Strong's Hebrew: 3588 - for, that, when) throughout Holy Scripture is a "red herring", yet the concept of association is a valid tool of instruction.

When the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki - Strong's Hebrew: 3588 - for, that, when) is cross-referenced among many Biblical passages with Genesis 2:16-17 as the point of departure, then the reader led by the Holy Spirit finds "when" is the accurate translation.

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.

 

[Oseas]

A friend of mine posted this;
FREE WILL?
Neither the will of God, nor the will of man is FREE from the confines of the nature of God or nature of man. The will of God and of man is simply the vehicle of expressing the deliberative processes within man or the purpose of God that manifests their thoughts or emotions or both. The will of God and the will of man are not independent of the nature of God or man but is simply the SERVANT of deliberations guided by the mind and heart of both man and God.
For example, the will of God is not free to sin! Why? Because the nature of God is IMMUTABLY HOLY and therefore it is not possible for God to choose to sin. Hence, the Scriptures say God CANNOT lie. He cannot choose anything contrary to his MORAL NATURE.
Adam prior to the fall was MUTABLY HOLY and therefore could choose to do evil and did choose to do evil.
However, fallen man is IMMUTABLY DEPRAVED and cannot choose to do righteousness because his nature is immutably unholy and LOVES DARKNESS and HATES the light and neither cometh to the light. His mind is immutably at war with God and "is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed CAN BE."
Hence, when God looked down from heaven through time to see if ANY MAN would seek him he found NONE (Psa. 14:2-3; Rom. 3:9-12).
Hence, Jesus said "NO MAN CAN COME to me EXCEPT the Father draw him..." (Jn. 6:44). The Bible denies that fallen man has inherent ability to choose or to will to come to Christ by faith and yet Arminianism preaches the exact opposite.
It is the fact of this immutably depraved and unholy nature in fallen man that God can JUSTLY condemn them to hell as Jesus clearly told Nicodemus that they are "condemned already." Hence, Jesus did not have to come into the world to condemn anyone. So, hell is the JUST penalty for all fallen mankind and fallen mankind would rather burn than turn from their sins.
In direct contrast, election is UNTO salvation and is all of grace (Rom. 11:5) without which NO MAN WOULD BELIEVE in Christ but would go right on their way to hell FREELY choosing to rebel against God.

GOD said to the man: Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord GOD COMMANDED the man, saying, ... of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou SHALL NOT EAT of it:... Where is the free will?

Do we have freewill ? Is it biblical ?

We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. Here G-d...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Corinth77777]

If by free will one means ability to choose ..then yes one has free will

 

[Corinth77777]

One might say God does not lie. Instead of cannot lie

Does He have the ability to lie? Many would say yes.

Does He have the ability to go against his own nature some might say yes. But why would He....He's God

 

[brightfame52]

If by free will one means ability to choose ..then yes one has free will

Yet man naturally cannot choose beyond the boundaries of his sinful, spiritually dead nature.

Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

For instance,man by nature is a child of disobedience, he cant choose obedience, doesnt have the nature for it.

 

[Corinth77777]

Yet man naturally cannot choose beyond the boundaries of his sinful, spiritually dead nature.

Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

For instance,man by nature is a child of disobedience, he cant choose obedience, doesnt have the nature for it.

Are you saying that man cannot choose to believe the Gospel when presented as an option?

Because one is quickened because they believe who Jesus is.......?


If there was no option then surely He cannot choose what He does not know exist for Him.

Reference:The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark

But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Isaiah saith, “Lord, who hath believed our report?”

Rom 10

 

[brightfame52]

Corinth77777

Are you saying that man cannot choose to believe the Gospel when presented as an option?

Correct, the Gospel calls for obedience, yet the natural man by nature is a child of disobedience, he cant change his nature.

 

[Free]

One might say God does not lie. Instead of cannot lie

Does He have the ability to lie? Many would say yes.

Does He have the ability to go against his own nature some might say yes. But why would He....He's God

Some might say those things, but they would be wrong. God cannot lie because he cannot go against his nature. If he could, he wouldn’t be God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Correct, the Gospel calls for obedience, yet the natural man by nature is a child of disobedience, he cant change his nature.

That's why flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50), natural man must be born again with a new spiritual nature (Jn. 3:3).

 

[brightfame52]

That's why flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50), natural man must be born again with a new spiritual nature (Jn. 3:3).

Right he needs that new spiritual nature first to respond with obedience to the Gospel. So we read of 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Corinth77777]

Some might say those things, but they would be wrong. God cannot lie because he cannot go against his nature. If he could, he wouldn’t be God.

So you believe they are wrong, that He has the ability but won't use it?

 

[Corinth77777]

Corinth77777



Correct, the Gospel calls for obedience, yet the natural man by nature is a child of disobedience, he cant change his nature.

Let me think about this- when a person hears the word ...He must believe in order to receive the Holy Spirit
[(hears) verb]

Therefore a person hears the good news and has a choice to believe what He hears. Otherwise what would be the point of the command - to repent and believe the Gospel?

Hence upon hearing they must believe.
One cannot choose to respond unless they first hear. The Gospel then the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.

Therefore man's nature is changed upon his response to believe the Gosple.

Faith/ belief comes by hearing.
Hearing the word seems to be part of the quickening

Lets see one receiveds the Spirit when they believe what they hear.

So natural man can---> believe(verb)

All I would say is that it takes intervention by God- by bringing the word- But why would one insist that one can't choose to respond to what they hear?

Jesus said the words He spoke were Spirit and life..

The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! 1 The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 2

Human nature cannot produce life
Life produces Life.
Yet one still can respond by believing

So then He changes His nature when He chooses to believe.

Its just like this passage in Duet:
Today I invoke heaven and earth as a witness against you that I have set life and death, blessing and curse, before you. Therefore life so choose that you and your descendants may live!

 

[Corinth77777]

Some might say those things, but they would be wrong. God cannot lie because he cannot go against his nature. If he could, he wouldn’t be God.

Here is someone I found...that agrees with what I wrote let me know whayou think.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/8n7j5g/can_the_christian_god_commit_a_sin

 

[Oseas]

If by free will one means ability to choose ..then yes one has free will

Your thinking is from a human perspective, not from GOD's perspetive, the difference of wisdom is unspeakable.

There is a great difference between who was/is born of GOD and who was/ is born of the blood, and of the flesh, and of the will of man. The first man is of the earth, earthy. 1Corinthians 15:46->46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural(animal); and afterward that which is spiritual.
7 And the Lord GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, --> (has eyes but doesn't see, has ears but doesn't hear, has mouth but doesn't speak; Then the Lord GOD breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. But GOD said by the prophet : Isaiah 2:22-Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

Remember: John 1:9-10 & 5 & 11:
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on His name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

JESUS said: John 3:3- Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of GOD.

So, howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural(animal); and afterward that which is spiritual.
John 20:21-22-
21 Then said JESUS to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:

Therefore, based on the Word of GOD, I think you should re-study and revise your interpretation, making difference between interpretation by the spirit that is in common man and is of man, and the Spirit of GOD that is the Word.-John 4:24 combined with John 6:63.

GOD BLESS

 

[Free]

So you believe they are wrong, that He has the ability but won't use it?

Yes. He cannot.

Here is someone I found...that agrees with what I wrote let me know whayou think.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/8n7j5g/can_the_christian_god_commit_a_sin

He’s wrong. It’s a lack of understanding what omnipotence actually entails and is easily proven false.

 

[Oseas]

Someone said: We have freewill God lets us decide to do good or bad and our purpose in life is when we make that decision.

That's the problem. GOD said: Genesis 2:17-
17 Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Proverbs 18:21- Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

JAMES 3:6-8
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 The tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

JESUS said: Matthew 15:11 & 18-19
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the MOUTH, this defileth a man.

18 The things which proceed out of the MOUTH come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Romans 3:10-18

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after GOD.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (but DOES good AND BAD -> the man is the tree of good and evil)
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose MOUTH is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of GOD before their eyes.

Again: Genesis 2:17- Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.-> (the man made of the dust has eyes but doesn't see, has ears but doesn't hear, has mouth but doesn't speak of GOD's things-the Word of GOD-, only after GOD breathed into his nostrils the breath of life man became a living soul.-Isaiah 2:22): but of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

John 3:3 - > JESUS said to Nicodemus: -> Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of GOD.

The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death. 1Corinthians 15:24-26 and 51-58

GOD BLESS

Do we have freewill ? Is it biblical ?

We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. Here G-d...

purebibleforum.com

 

[brightfame52]

Let me think about this- when a person hears the word ...He must believe in order to receive the Holy Spirit
[(hears) verb]

Therefore a person hears the good news and has a choice to believe what He hears. Otherwise what would be the point of the command - to repent and believe the Gospel?

Hence upon hearing they must believe.
One cannot choose to respond unless they first hear. The Gospel then the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.

Therefore man's nature is changed upon his response to believe the Gosple.

Faith/ belief comes by hearing.
Hearing the word seems to be part of the quickening

Lets see one receiveds the Spirit when they believe what they hear.

So natural man can---> believe(verb)

All I would say is that it takes intervention by God- by bringing the word- But why would one insist that one can't choose to respond to what they hear?

Jesus said the words He spoke were Spirit and life..

The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! 1 The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 2

Human nature cannot produce life
Life produces Life.
Yet one still can respond by believing

So then He changes His nature when He chooses to believe.

Its just like this passage in Duet:
Today I invoke heaven and earth as a witness against you that I have set life and death, blessing and curse, before you. Therefore life so choose that you and your descendants may live!

A child of disobedience cannot choose to be obedient. By nature we are the children of disobedience and walk according to that spirit and nature Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Corinth77777]

Your thinking is from a human perspective, not from GOD's perspetive, the difference of wisdom is unspeakable.

There is a great difference between who was/is born of GOD and who was/ is born of the blood, and of the flesh, and of the will of man. The first man is of the earth, earthy. 1Corinthians 15:46->46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural(animal); and afterward that which is spiritual.
7 And the Lord GOD formed man of the dust of the ground, --> (has eyes but doesn't see, has ears but doesn't hear, has mouth but doesn't speak; Then the Lord GOD breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. But GOD said by the prophet : Isaiah 2:22-Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

Remember: John 1:9-10 & 5 & 11:
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on His name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

JESUS said: John 3:3- Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of GOD.

So, howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural(animal); and afterward that which is spiritual.
John 20:21-22-
21 Then said JESUS to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:

Therefore, based on the Word of GOD, I think you should re-study and revise your interpretation, making difference between interpretation by the spirit that is in common man and is of man, and the Spirit of GOD that is the Word.-John 4:24 combined with John 6:63.

GOD BLESS

?

 

[Corinth77777]

Yes. He cannot.


He’s wrong. It’s a lack of understanding what omnipotence actually entails and is easily proven false.

Omniscience and Omnibenevolence

Do you believe Jesus was both God and man?

If yes then

If he was tempted and could not sin why was He tempted?

You are saying that Jesus did not have the ability
to sin....Do you still believe that?