Was James confused?

[bodhitharta]

Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

No, he was not!!!!!!!  ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. 

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that He did.  Paul accurately reports this.  It seems that James, in order to mix salvation by works and faith, did not consider this fact in the scriptures.  It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
 
James writes:
22  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.  Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" because he was willing to offer Isaac. As a matter of fact I cannot find a statement in the O.T. that says Abraham was called a friend of God.

Based upon faulty premises, one is bound to come to a faulty conclusion:

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Which is, as shown above, a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in the scriptures.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law†is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace†is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ†is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified†is found in 2 place with the words “by works†after them
5. The words “by faith†is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross†is not found
7. The word “reconciled†is not found
8. The word “sanctified†is not found
9. The word “saved†is not found
10. The words “in Christ†are not found

Written by: Richard Burger, 2003

James preached the Gospel that Jesus taught, this is the true and original Gospel that all the disciples preached.

2 Chronicles 20 (King James Version)

7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?


Isaiah 41 (King James Version)

8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

 

[samuel]

One more time.

Paul did not teach against the law:

Rom:7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom:7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom:7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So Paul is saying we, in our flesh cannot fulfill the law so.

Ro:7:24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro:7:25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And:

Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro:8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro:8:3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro:8:4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Now really that is as far as I will peruse this thread, if you do not understand this you never will get it.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

One more time.

Paul did not teach against the law:

Read earlier in the thread. I pointed out how Paul contradicts himself by calling the law 'holy' in one place, and a 'curse' in another place.
But its evident that Paul has written against the law in several places....

How exactly are you reading this ....

Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
-Galatians 2:16

Paul is the ONLY person who is saying such a thing.
That is just one example. I can look up others as well.

 

[samuel]

The law is Gods standard of righteousness, only God alone can fulfill these standards, as he did in Christ.

Are you God??, can you fulfill these standards??, then Paul was right when he said by works of the law will no flesh be justified. Only by faith in the justifier (Christ), can anyone fulfill Gods standards of righteousness. Paul did not come to teach the law, the condemnation of sinful flesh. Paul came to teach Christ the fulfillment of the law, and the justifier of those, of faith in Christ Jesus.

Stop looking for contradictions in the Bible, and receive the glorious truths in the scriptures.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Rom:7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom:7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom:7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So Paul is saying we, in our flesh cannot fulfill the law so.

Yeah, Paul is saying that.

But God said the opposite when he when he passed down the law to people to fulfill it.
And Jesus and the prophets said the opposite when they were busy preaching it.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

The law is Gods standard of righteousness, only God alone can fulfill these standards, as he did in Christ.

God sent the law for man to follow.


...He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD
-Ezekial 18:9

Are you God??, can you fulfill these standards??, then Paul was right when he said by works of the law will no flesh be justified. Only by faith in the justifier (Christ), can anyone fulfill Gods standards of righteousness. Paul did not come to teach the law, the condemnation of sinful flesh. Paul came to teach Christ the fulfillment of the law, and the justifier of those, of faith in Christ Jesus.

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
-Luke 1:5-6

Looks like certain people were capable of following the law...and were considereed rightoeous for doing so.


For the commandment is a lamp; And the law is light; And reproofs of instruction are the way of life.
-Proverbs 6:23


The law of the wise is a fountain of life, That one may depart from the snares of death.
-Proverbs 13:14


- Are you really sure about the works of the law not being able to justify a person?? If so, what are we going to do with verses like these?

Stop looking for contradictions in the Bible, and receive the glorious truths in the scriptures.

Stop avoiding looking at the contradictions.


And theres also this.....
Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults.
-Isaiah 51:7

 

[samuel]

The Lord himself said:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And praise God he did; so myself and others who by faith walk not after the flesh, but in the Spirit. And are no longer under the condemnation of the Law, have passed from death unto the glorious life in Christ Jesus. :amen

"That's all folks".

 

[Adullam]

Adullam, all that is fine, but you are not addressing the real issue.

I will ask you one simpe question, please answer to the point...

God and all the prophets he sent all said that the law is to be kept.
Paul,by his own words, is the only one who taught AGAINST it. How do you reconcile to this??

It is Paul's wording that makes it sound as if He is against the law. As you pointed out...it appears as if he is contradicting himself. I will post here two verses that seem to contradict...

13for not the hearers of the law arej just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:l

And...

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:20

Do these seem to contradict?

They don't...Paul is addressing men who thought they were justified through their own efforts. Ironocally they couldn't keep the law perfectly as they admitted in any regard. But a man who walks in Christ...DOES fulfill the law.

So no flesh can justify itself by an attempt at law keeping....but one who does accomplish the law (through divine power) IS justified.

Paul is contrasting a walk in the flesh with a walk in the Spirit. No one can JUSTIFY HIMSELF through his own effort.

But the power of Christ DOES JUSTIFY him who overcomes sin in obedience to the law. A simple man now has been given this grace.

So Paul rails against the old vain efforts in favour of the new living way in Christ.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

The Lord himself said:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And praise God he did; so myself and others who by faith walk not after the flesh, but in the Spirit. And are no longer under the condemnation of the Law, have passed from death unto the glorious life in Christ Jesus. :amen

Jesus did NOT say "since I have fulfilled it, nobody else needs to continue to keep it". If you show me ONE place in scripture where he said such a thing, I will say you are correct.

But instead he instructed his followers to keep the law and even stated that the law will remain till heaven and earth pass away. The floor beneath me is still there, so....

 

[Adullam]

The Lord himself said:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And praise God he did; so myself and others who by faith walk not after the flesh, but in the Spirit. And are no longer under the condemnation of the Law, have passed from death unto the glorious life in Christ Jesus. :amen

Jesus did NOT say "since I have fulfilled it, nobody else needs to continue to keep it". If you show me ONE place in scripture where he said such a thing, I will say you are correct.

But instead he instructed his followers to keep the law and even stated that the law will remain till heaven and earth pass away. The floor beneath me is still there, so....

:amen

 

[RichardBurger]

No one on this thread has come to grips with the issues addressed in the OP. It has been changed into a thread on works and law.

Can it be that no one here can really see. That everything has to be boiled down to a works, no works, issues and completely ignore the issues in the OP.

Come on people, do the scriptures given in Genius support the claims of James, that Abraham was only righteous because he offered up his son, or do the scriptures support that Abraham was righteous long before his son was born?????????????????????????????????????????

This is the focus of the OP and you all seem to be blind to it. Perhaps it is because your theology will not allow you to think about it.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Adullam, all that is fine, but you are not addressing the real issue.

I will ask you one simpe question, please answer to the point...

God and all the prophets he sent all said that the law is to be kept.
Paul,by his own words, is the only one who taught AGAINST it. How do you reconcile to this??

It is Paul's wording that makes it sound as if He is against the law. As you pointed out...it appears as if he is contradicting himself. I will post here two verses that seem to contradict...

13for not the hearers of the law arej just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:l

And...

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:20

Do these seem to contradict?

They don't...Paul is addressing men who thought they were justified through their own efforts. Ironocally they couldn't keep the law perfectly as they admitted in any regard. But a man who walks in Christ...DOES fulfill the law.

So no flesh can justify itself by an attempt at law keeping....but one who does accomplish the law (through divine power) IS justified.

Adullam, please take a look at verses like the ones where Paul calls the law a curse and teaches that men are not made righteous by keeping the law.
Its all so clear! No other book in the bible speaks of the law this way!!

 

[sk0rpi0n]

No one on this thread has come to grips with the issues addressed in the OP. It has been changed into a thread on works and law.

Can it be that no one here can really see. That everything has to be boiled down to a works, no works, issues and completely ignore the issues in the OP.

Come on people, do the scriptures given in Genius support the claims of James, that Abraham was only righteous because he offered up his son, or do the scriptures support that Abraham was righteous long before his son was born?????????????????????????????????????????

This is the focus of the OP and you all seem to be blind to it. Perhaps it is because your theology will not allow you to think about it.

Sorry, didnt mean to derail your thread. I apologize.
Ill step back and take a break from this thread.

 

[samuel]

Come on people, do the scriptures given in Genius support the claims of James, that Abraham was only righteous because he offered up his son, or do the scriptures support that Abraham was righteous long before his son was born?????????????????????????????????????????

No Abraham was counted righteous long before Isaac was born. But his faith was justified by his works (obedience).

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now Abraham was counted righteous because he believed God, but what was it Abraham believed?.

 

[bodhitharta]

@Adullam

Read Pauls words again.
You cant back up the law while teaching agaisnt it. Paul taught against the law, as is made clear in several places in his books.

You are 100% correct!

Paul not only says that Jesus is cursed he then contradicts himself again saying:

1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version)

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


But paul admits deception:

2 Corinthians 12 (King James Version)

16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Romans 3 (King James Version)

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


1 Corinthians 9

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Philippians 1 (King James Version)

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

[RichardBurger]

Adullam, all that is fine, but you are not addressing the real issue.

I will ask you one simpe question, please answer to the point...

God and all the prophets he sent all said that the law is to be kept.
Paul,by his own words, is the only one who taught AGAINST it. How do you reconcile to this??

It is Paul's wording that makes it sound as if He is against the law. As you pointed out...it appears as if he is contradicting himself. I will post here two verses that seem to contradict...

13for not the hearers of the law arej just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:l

And...

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:20

Do these seem to contradict?

They don't...Paul is addressing men who thought they were justified through their own efforts. Ironocally they couldn't keep the law perfectly as they admitted in any regard. But a man who walks in Christ...DOES fulfill the law.

So no flesh can justify itself by an attempt at law keeping....but one who does accomplish the law (through divine power) IS justified.

Adullam, please take a look at verses like the ones where Paul calls the law a curse and teaches that men are not made righteous by keeping the law.
Its all so clear! No other book in the bible speaks of the law this way!!

Does not address the issues in the OP

 

[RichardBurger]

Come on people, do the scriptures given in Genius support the claims of James, that Abraham was only righteous because he offered up his son, or do the scriptures support that Abraham was righteous long before his son was born?????????????????????????????????????????

No Abraham was counted righteous long before Isaac was born. But his faith was justified by his works (obedience).

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now Abraham was counted righteous because he believed God, but what was it Abraham believed?.

Why don't you tell us, and please quote the scriptures. This reply does not focus on the issues of when Abraham was said to be righteous before God.

 

[RichardBurger]

@Adullam

Read Pauls words again.
You cant back up the law while teaching agaisnt it. Paul taught against the law, as is made clear in several places in his books.

You are 100% correct!

Paul not only says that Jesus is cursed he then contradicts himself again saying:

1 Corinthians 12:2-4 (King James Version)

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


But paul admits deception:

2 Corinthians 12 (King James Version)

16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Romans 3 (King James Version)

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


1 Corinthians 9

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Philippians 1 (King James Version)

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

You have not addressed the issues in the OP

 

[RichardBurger]

If the issues in the OP are not addressed in this thread then I see no reason to reply since all I am going to say is you are not addressing the issues in the OP.

 

[stovebolts]

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

I understand your argument. I simply responded to that in BOLD.

Most say that the book of James was written around AD 48 while Galatians was written around AD 50, yet we see no rebuke of James by Paul... Only a rebuke to Peter... all while stating that James was a pillar int he church.

If your argument is correct, why no rebuke to James by Paul?

You still have not addressed the issues raised in the OP. What you want to do is to re-focus the subject to another one. You are certainly arragant if you think I should address your issue while you refuse to address mine.

I am simply pointing what I see as an error in your premise that Paul and James preached a different gospel...

There is an OP on this forum about what Paul was teaching both Jews and Gentiles and what James and the Elders were teaching the Jews. In Act 21 we see the believing Jews were angry at Paul for teaching the Jews that a person did not have the be circumsized. HOWEVER, the believing Jews were only angry at Paul. CONCLUSION; obvously James and the Elders were not teaching what Paul was teaching.

Actually... The Apostles themselves actually did what was known as binding and loosing (Mt. 18:18) with the Gentiles. The gentiles were only bound by the Church what was written in verse 25. Basically, they are repeating what was done earlier in Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.

According to Acts 21:27, it was the "Jews" that stirred up the chaos, not the believing Jews...

Are people so dogmatic in their theology that they cannot see. If they were angry at Paul then why weren't they angry with James and the Elders????????????????? ---- If, as most say, they were all teaching the same thing isn't it most likely that the beleiving Jews would have been angry with James and the Elder TOO??????????

As I stated earlier, it was not the believing Jews that started the chaos, it was the Jews. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, not the Jews and of course the Jew's were angry... It was the Jew's that had Jesus crucified. But I regress, Paul was not against Torah as another poster already mentioned. What Paul clarifies in his letter to the Romans, is the purpose and intent of Torah, and what Torah could not fulfill (life), Jesus fulfilled by living out Torah as God originally intended. You see, the word became flesh because Torah was to be lived out, not just talked about. The object of Torah was action for the purpose of a fuller life.

Now then, lets take a look at what you've posted.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

I believe that the two operatives are justified and righteousness. Abraham was righteous because he believed (had faith) in God's promise. He was justified because he acted in accordance with God's command through that righteousness (faith). It's a pretty simple concept actually.

John puts it in another way, 1 John 3:7 My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: