Was James confused?

[Adullam]

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that He did.  Paul accurately reports this.  It seems that James, in order to mix salvation by works and faith, did not consider this fact in the scriptures.  It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

You are assuming that one act of faith saves a person. A theory is just that. To be saved we must produce the fruit of righteousness continually! One could cite any act of faith and righteousness to show the way of a man. You are getting tripped up based on chronology. Believing God once doesn't save somebody for all time. Being faithful does.

 

[stovebolts]

Now to those that love James and believe you must have works to have faith I say this, God knows His children and He knows they have placed their complete belief, faith, trust, confidence, and hope in the work of God on the cross. But the religious will never do that because they place their faith in their theology.

Richard,
May I suggest that perhaps your reading James like those that would consider that salvation must be earned... which ends with self righteousness and as Jesus said, their reward is their works (Mt 6:5).

You see Richard, our faith must be lived out, just as God's faith was lived out through Christ Jesus. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son. You see Richard, faith is always made manifest through an action while a lack of faith results in a lack of action generally accompanied by a lot of thinking and talking... God, who is love and who is a spirit wrapped flesh around his word and took action to redeem that which was already his.

James is not saying that one must earn his salvation through works. He is simply explaining that true faith and obedience in God always results in works that are pleasing to our Lord. So you see, James is not saying, as you've said, "you must have works to have faith", let us be clear about that. James is saying that if you have faith, it will produce good works, so put away that remote and get er done ;)

That being said, when we look at the story of Abraham when he went to offer his only child (from Sarah) whom he loved, it could not have been easy and through it all, his faith was strengthened so you see, the two are inseparable.

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God is able to raise up, even from the dead; from whence he did also in a figure receive him back.

 

[dadof10]

Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

No, he was not!!!!!!!  ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. 

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that He did.  Paul accurately reports this.  It seems that James, in order to mix salvation by works and faith, did not consider this fact in the scriptures.  It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
 
James writes:
22  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.  Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" because he was willing to offer Isaac. As a matter of fact I cannot find a statement in the O.T. that says Abraham was called a friend of God.

Based upon faulty premises, one is bound to come to a faulty conclusion:

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Which is, as shown above, a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in the scriptures.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law†is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace†is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ†is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified†is found in 2 place with the words “by works†after them
5. The words “by faith†is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross†is not found
7. The word “reconciled†is not found
8. The word “sanctified†is not found
9. The word “saved†is not found
10. The words “in Christ†are not found

Written by: Richard Burger, 2003

There are three things that are obvious when studying Genesis, Paul, James, Abraham and justification.

1) Justification is an ONGOING PROCESS, not a onetime event.

2) The word "works" in Paul's letters refers SPECIFICALLY to "works of the law", the Jewish ritual Law, which has no bearing on justification.

3) When James writes about "works", is refers specifically to good deeds done in faith, which do have a role in the process of our justification

If you can grasp these three points, you don't have to reject yet another inspired book in favor of novel, subjective Bible interpretation, These three points reconcile James and Paul.

 

[RichardBurger]

As a matter of fact I cannot find a statement in the O.T. that says Abraham was called a friend of God.

Such complete ignorance....

Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God.
Gen. 15:6; Isa. 41:8

[quote:1jlp16qh]And he believed in Jehovah. And He counted it to him for righteousness.
(Genesis 15:6 MKJV)


But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, My friend;
(Isaiah 41:8 MKJV)

Guess like other false teachers you just didnt look hard enough.
But then, false teachers dont actually want the truth, now do they ?[/quote:1jlp16qh]

You almost got by with it but I am here to show that both you and James are incorrect.

There is nothing in Isaiah 41:8 that says Abraham was God’s friend because Abraham offered up Isaac. As a matter of fact it does not say WHY God called Abraham His friend.

--- Both you and James have made an assumption. My OP still stands as written.

 

[RichardBurger]

Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?


There are three things that are obvious when studying Genesis, Paul, James, Abraham and justification.

1) Justification is an ONGOING PROCESS, not a onetime event.

2) The word "works" in Paul's letters refers SPECIFICALLY to "works of the law", the Jewish ritual Law, which has no bearing on justification.

3) When James writes about "works", is refers specifically to good deeds done in faith, which do have a role in the process of our justification

If you can grasp these three points, you don't have to reject yet another inspired book in favor of novel, subjective Bible interpretation, These three points reconcile James and Paul.

I disagree with you. Salvation is not an on going process.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

The word “were†is past tense which means it has been accomplished, Salvation is COMPLETELY the work of God. We do not justify ourselves by what WE do.

 

[Vince]

A good thing about this thread is that it confronts many Godly Christians with the impossibility of easy believism. Genuine salvation MUST produce a new birth, which MUST produce a changed life, which MUST produce good works.

The good works have nothing at all to do with producing salvation, but they are the inevitable result.

 

[dadof10]

I disagree with you. Salvation is not an on going process.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

The word “were†is past tense which means it has been accomplished, Salvation is COMPLETELY the work of God. We do not justify ourselves by what WE do.

Maybe it was Paul who is confused, and James got it right? Maybe we should throw out all the books that teach justification by faith (allegedly) alone? If we have two seemingly contradictory views, it does no good to not even attempt a reconciliation. Abraham was OBVIOUSLY justified three times, James OBVIOUSLY teaches that "works" affect our justification. How do you RECONCILE these FACTS with your man-made OSAS doctrine.

 

[stovebolts]

A good thing about this thread is that it confronts many Godly Christians with the impossibility of easy believism. Genuine salvation MUST produce a new birth, which MUST produce a changed life, which MUST produce good works.

The good works have nothing at all to do with producing salvation, but they are the inevitable result.

I suppose that depends on your view of salvation... David, many times asked YHVH to save him from his enemies... Sometimes, we just need to be saved here, now... because eternity is part of now... and I don't know what your life experience has been, but at times, for others, it can become unbearable.

 

[RichardBurger]

A good thing about this thread is that it confronts many Godly Christians with the impossibility of easy believism. Genuine salvation MUST produce a new birth, which MUST produce a changed life, which MUST produce good works.

The good works have nothing at all to do with producing salvation, but they are the inevitable result.

And who is there that is to judge whether a person has good works, you, the religious, or God?

Many do good works that are not Christians. Are they saved? Good works are a personal matter between the child of God and God.

James wants to prove his faith by his works. Is he boasting?

A person's good works does not make them a child of God. Nor do they prove his faith in God's promise of grace by the cross. The child of God does not have to prove his/her faith to mankind. God knows His children and He knows whether they trust in Him or not.

If good works prove a person's faith then there are a few on this forum, and many other forums, who claim to be Christians that should be in serious doubt that they have faith. They will vilify and demean anyone that does not agree with them. They know who they are.

 

[Vince]

"If good works prove a person's faith then there are a few on this forum, and many other forums, who claim to be Christians that should be in serious doubt that they have faith."

Richard, I'm too new to know who you're talking about, but your statement is true. Galatians 5:19-21 is so unpopular with Christians that Paul had to deal with the Galatians because of their own rejection of its teachings.

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Adullam]

"If good works prove a person's faith then there are a few on this forum, and many other forums, who claim to be Christians that should be in serious doubt that they have faith."

Richard, I'm too new to know who you're talking about, but your statement is true. Galatians 5:19-21 is so unpopular with Christians that Paul had to deal with the Galatians because of their own rejection of its teachings.

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

What? Is condemnation based on works now?

 

[Vince]

What? Is condemnation based on works now?

No, condemnation is based on sin. This condemnation appears in everyone who has rejected Christ. Paul was showing that a person who continues in the works of the flesh has never really accepted Christ as Savior.

 

[bodhitharta]

What? Is condemnation based on works now?

No, condemnation is based on sin. This condemnation appears in everyone who has rejected Christ. Paul was showing that a person who continues in the works of the flesh has never really accepted Christ as Savior.

If that is the case then you are saved by works because if you must refrain from sin then the power of Sin is still valid.

Paul at one point says his flesh follows the law of sin but his mind follows Christ but in galatians he is clearly stating that the sins of the flesh leads to condemnation if this is so the Law remains for the entire Law is based upon refraining from sinfulness.

 

[Vince]

No, you are saved by faith alone, in Jesus alone. Good works MUST follow salvation as a natural result of the new birth, but those good works don't save you.

 

[Elijah674]

Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

No, he was not!!!!!!!  ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. 

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that He did.  Paul accurately reports this.  It seems that James, in order to mix salvation by works and faith, did not consider this fact in the scriptures.  It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
 
James writes:
22  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.  Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" because he was willing to offer Isaac. As a matter of fact I cannot find a statement in the O.T. that says Abraham was called a friend of God.

Based upon faulty premises, one is bound to come to a faulty conclusion:

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Which is, as shown above, a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in the scriptures.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law†is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace†is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ†is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified†is found in 2 place with the words “by works†after them
5. The words “by faith†is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross†is not found
7. The word “reconciled†is not found
8. The word “sanctified†is not found
9. The word “saved†is not found
10. The words “in Christ†are not found

Written by: Richard Burger, 2003

John lived way past James. AD 96 is the date of the Rev. by most it seems. And while Christ told us what the Holy Ghost would do for us, (John 14:26) do you not believe that He would do even more so for John if anything before him needed correcting??? NO, There is No problems with James or Paul or whatever another one, is confused about? See 2 Peter 3:16.

--Elijah

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

it is shocking to see such pride to speak against not only an apostle of the Lord chosen by His hand, given to Him by God, taught by him personally. An elder of the church upon which the whole foundation of the church is built!

Not only that but to speak against the word of God itself because the word of God does not fit your false doctrine which is evident by the fact that you must throw away and disparrage apostles and the bible to fit your doctrine. Repent of your open sin.

 

[Vince]

Doggone Good Illustration

About three weeks ago, Anna, the stupidest dog in Mexico, got hit by a car. The saying "No brain, no pain" applied, because she jumped up and ran 1/2 kilometer home. The next day, the vet said that her leg was dislocated. He opened her up, wired the bone into the socket, and then closed her up.

She came home with a shaved leg, complete with stitches. But she still walked on three legs. The vet said that she was sore, and he had us stretching her leg a few times a day. Meanwhile, the fur started growing back on her leg.

Today he told us that the new fur was proof that her leg had been saved. If the skin and muscle were dead, there would be no fur. The fur didn't save her leg; but it is the inevitable result of the leg being saved.

Good works are the inevitable result of saving grace. They do not save you, but they are the inevitable result of salvation, the evidence that salvation actually did occur.

 

[Joe67]

If the tree does not finally have fruit on it, it will be cut down and burned in the fire.

The fruit on the tree that has life is the fruit of the spirit; fruit that is meet for repentance.

The free gift is for justification/peace with God in Jesus Christ our Lord, the resurrected Son of God. The 4th beast of Daniel 7, the beast of unbelief is put to the burning flame by the Son of man on the clouds of heaven before the Ancient of days. The other 3 beasts of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life have their dominion taken away, but their lives are prolonged.

By this same Jesus we also have entrance into the room of grace whereby there is salvation ( from our sins of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life ) accompanied by tribulation that bears fruit unto patience, experience and hope. Then we will not be ashamed at his coming as the 4 corners of love are shed abroad in our hearts by the holy Spirit of suffering that is given unto us in ministry to the other members of his Body. The world will know that the Father sent the Son when the members of the Body are one, as Jesus and the Father are one. Isaac and Ishmael buried their father, Abraham, together in peace. Jacob/Israel and Esau buried their father, Isaac, together in peace. Israel and Esau made peace and wept together in their meeting at the brook, Jabbok. When Israel and Esau met, Israel bowed down 7 times to his older brother Esau, then they embraced and wept.

When the body is dead, there is peace. When we are crucified with Christ, we are at peace with those who curse us and we pray for the blessing on those who despitefully use us. Then we are being saved from our sins by the life of Christ dying in us and manifesting through our mortal flesh, to the praise and glory of Jesus our Lord, in whom God, the Father is glorified. In that process, God is saving us through his workings of grace in charity. Not our charity but the charity of God in Christ Jesus being made manifest through our mortal flesh to the needy about us, as it did in Jesus our Lord as he hung upon the cross.

But we are not thereby justified by this working of a measure of grace. We are justified by the fullness of grace that is in the risen Jesus, the new creation of God, the new Son of God. He is our peace, our justification, our atonement with God. By Jesus Christ we are given a measure of his fullness to fight the good fight of faith and to overcome the wicked one as we serve the Body of Jesus. This is for those who are weaned from the breast. Justification is sweet in the mouth as we hear the word of forgiveness and imputation of righteousness. Salvation is bitter in the belly as the living waters flow out of our belly forgiving our tormentors and accusers, especially in the Body.

Don't sell your birthright. Don't buy your birthright with a mess of pottage or your brother will hate you for your deception. Both will have to die to your feelings of hate and despisement to be reconciled. It must need be, but woe be to him by whom it comes.

Joe

 

[justvisiting]

James is not a legalist at all. He was subject to the teaching of Christ (was actually alive when Christ was) every bit as much as Paul.
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James is still saying you are Saved by faith...but works will follow. Read Paul more closely.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Saved by faith...but there is such a thing as Apostasy.
His righteousness is imputed...but faith in sincerity will show works.

 

[Elijah674]

I see it as working because the Born Again Love is the MOTIVE. Christ states that If one LOVES Him, they will keep His commandments. That is not O.S.A.S. either! Rev. 3:16 lukewarm stuff will find one spewed out oif His mouth as sickening.

--Elijah

PS: It is interesting how one constantly hears of Grace needing NO LOVING Works??? Yet, these worse offenders (if that is the case?) such as Gen. 4:7's DESIRE for satan ones, are the hardest workers on the planet it seems?)