Was James confused?

[justvisiting]

God Himself says the law is to be kept.
Jesus and the prophets said the same thing...and James is no exception.

Paul is the ONLY one in the bible who speaks against the law. Even Jesus in Pauls 'visions' did not say anything about the law being done away with for good. Yet, christians follow Pauls words rather than Jesus' words.

I would suggest you get some proper teaching from a man of God.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Faith ... followed by works. That is what God requires.

 

[justvisiting]

You are also wrong that Paul spoke against the law. He did not. It was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. It is written on our conscience.
James also said the same thing. Break one law...you've broken them all. Faith...followed with works...because a Christian is lead by the Spirit...not the flesh.
All the Apostles agree. You should try reading all of Paul...and all of James...and all of Jesus.
Jesus said...Love the Lord your God, with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind...and love your neighbor as yourself...on these...the whole law rests. We walk after the Spirit...not after the flesh.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

You are also wrong that Paul spoke against the law. He did not. It was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. It is written on our conscience.
James also said the same thing. Break one law...you've broken them all. Faith...followed with works...because a Christian is lead by the Spirit...not the flesh.

Paul speaks against the law when he says...

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
- Galatians 2:16


God says...
...He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD
-Ezekial 18:9


The two messages are NOT the same, no matter how you try and look at it. Keeping the law cannot be seperated from faith (as Paul tries to), because the zeal to keep the law comes solely out of faith and love of God. A man who doesnt have faith will not keep the law. A man who say he has faith but thinks the law does not justify is only fooling himself.

Here is a challenge, for those who want to take it up..,
Show me ONE, just ONE other prophet or apostle in the Bible who teaches that a man is not justified by observing the law, and I will reconsider my stance on this entire issue.

All the Apostles agree. You should try reading all of Paul...and all of James...and all of Jesus.

I have. And the discrepancies in Pauls message is clear.

http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

This might help you understand what Im saying.

Jesus said...Love the Lord your God, with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind...and love your neighbor as yourself...on these...the whole law rests. We walk after the Spirit...not after the flesh.

Yes, Jesus said that. The law rested on those two commandments, nothing to disagree with.

But Paul IS NOT echoing Jesus' words when he summarized the commandments in one place...and left out the most important one of them all!! Can you guess which one?

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
- Romans 13:8-10

 

[mutzrein]

Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

You see, keeping the commandments is not enough. Christ looks beyond the law.

 

[bodhitharta]

Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

You see, keeping the commandments is not enough. Christ looks beyond the law.

Matthew 19:17 (King James Version)

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Why did you leave that out?

 

[mutzrein]

Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

You see, keeping the commandments is not enough. Christ looks beyond the law.

Matthew 19:17 (King James Version)

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Why did you leave that out?

Well well well! I didn't intentionally, because I agree with what the KJV states - as you are rightly pointing out. I copied / pasted from NIV. Mmmm - interesting - another example of man's doctrine distorting scripture.

 

[dadof10]

No, you are saved by faith alone, in Jesus alone. Good works MUST follow salvation as a natural result of the new birth, but those good works don't save you.

Why "must" good works follow? What happens if they don't?

 

[Vince]

If good works do not follow, then the person was not really saved. There is no such thing as being saved without being born again, and there is no such thing as being born again without having a new life in Christ.

Every genuine Christian is a new creation. If he is not a new creation, it is because he never really accepted Christ as Savior.

 

[Elijah674]

No, you are saved by faith alone, in Jesus alone. Good works MUST follow salvation as a natural result of the new birth, but those good works don't save you.

Why "must" good works follow? What happens if they don't?

You can get your answer in Rev, 3:16

 

[mutzrein]

If good works do not follow, then the person was not really saved. There is no such thing as being saved without being born again, and there is no such thing as being born again without having a new life in Christ.

Every genuine Christian is a new creation. If he is not a new creation, it is because he never really accepted Christ as Savior.

I agreed with everything that you said - up until 'it is because he never really accepted Christ as Savior.'

Please show me where scripture teaches this. I submit that being a new creation starts with being born again - NOT with a choice to 'accept' Christ.

 

[Vince]

mutzrein, I'm not sure that I understand what you're asking. When a person completely accepts Christ, that person is saved (rescued from sin), forgiven, adopted into the family of God, born again, made into a new creation, and created unto good works.

ALL these things happen to a person who accepts Christ. When a person prays "Jesus please save me," and goes on in the same sinful life that he always had, with no change taking place, that person never really accepted Christ.

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein, I'm not sure that I understand what you're asking. When a person completely accepts Christ, that person is saved (rescued from sin), forgiven, adopted into the family of God, born again, made into a new creation, and created unto good works.

ALL these things happen to a person who accepts Christ. When a person prays "Jesus please save me," and goes on in the same sinful life that he always had, with no change taking place, that person never really accepted Christ.

Vince - you've put your finger on the problem.

When man believes that by a process of human decision (ie accepting Christ) he can be born again he denies scripture. Show me where a person can be born again by 'accepting' Christ.

Blessings

 

[dadof10]

If good works do not follow, then the person was not really saved. There is no such thing as being saved without being born again, and there is no such thing as being born again without having a new life in Christ.

Every genuine Christian is a new creation. If he is not a new creation, it is because he never really accepted Christ as Savior.

This theory breaks down into nonsense. Works are actions. Sometimes people do the actions and sometimes not. If I see a man on the street that needs my help and walk on by, does this prove I was "never really saved"? What if 10 minutes later I do an act of charity? Does this prove I AM saved?

We make choices every day that affect our salvation, and we always fall short because we are sinners, whether we are a "new creation" or not. Works are actions and we have the free will either to do the will of God or not, and these decisions directly affect our justification.

 

[dadof10]

You can get your answer in Rev, 3:16

Hummm...What does "spew you out of my mouth" mean to you in this context? Does it mean "not save you"? If so, I agree with you.

 

[Elijah674]

You can get your answer in Rev, 3:16

Hummm...What does "spew you out of my mouth" mean to you in this context? Does it mean "not save you"? If so, I agree with you.

Yes, 'i' think we heard the Holy Spirit correctly.

The works that the question was about, is the Born Again LOVE that these ones 'were given' as per John 3:3. And as the Inspired verse states, [THIS LOVING WORK] can become [LUKEWARM] as well as the useless to Christ 'indivual'.

What is also seen perhaps? is that in JUDGEMENT the COLD will fare better than these ex/Born Again ones. (compare Heb. 6:6 with verse 1-6 + even Matt. 10:15)

--Elijah

 

[Vince]

Some of you raised good points. WHAT actions prove that I'm saved?

In chapter 6, the author of Hebrews talks about false Christians who had fallen away, without ever being saved. Then he writes Heb 6:9 ¶ But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

He tells his readers that he is not talking about them, because they have things that accompany salvation. Okay, what things that accompany salvation? In the next verse, he writes:

Heb 6:10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Loving God's people is an inevitable result of salvation.Caring for God's people is an evidence of salvation.

 

[Elijah674]

Some of you raised good points. WHAT actions prove that I'm saved?

In chapter 6, the author of Hebrews talks about false Christians who had fallen away, without ever being saved. Then he writes Heb 6:9 ¶ But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

He tells his readers that he is not talking about them, because they have things that accompany salvation. Okay, what things that accompany salvation? In the next verse, he writes:

Heb 6:10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Loving God's people is an inevitable result of salvation.Caring for God's people is an evidence of salvation.

***
Elijah here: I highlited your above paragraph. One thing is for sure, and that is that these ones HAD BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, huh? And it sounds as if your post is such an one? one who is Rom. 8:14 'LED' (?) to believe that the Godhead just threatens with rubber bullets.. so to speak?

Note Peter, in 2 Peter 2:19-22 with these.. 'While they PROMISE THEM LIBERTY'. (O.S.A.S.) and verse 20 says AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED the pollution of the world [through the knowledge of thee Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,]..' And verse 21 is again your rubber bullets of GODS WARNINGS?? (that is an question!)

And then there is some more WARNINGS in Ec. 3:14 & Rev. FINAL one in its last few verses (18-19) about having ones name being REMOVED FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE. [WHERE IT MOST ASSUREDLY HAD BEEN WRITTEN] to be removed!
+++

 

[Vince]

Yes, Elijah, the false Christians had been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, without ever accepting Christ. They had been convicted of sin and had learned Scripture, through the work of the Holy Spirit. They had actually been "led" to do certain things by the Holy Spirit. It is possible, that, like Judas (who was a devil from the beginning) they had performed Christian works, through the power of the Holy Spirit. But they had never accepted Christ.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, Elijah, the false Christians had been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, without ever accepting Christ. They had been convicted of sin and had learned Scripture, through the work of the Holy Spirit. They had actually been "led" to do certain things by the Holy Spirit. It is possible, that, like Judas (who was a devil from the beginning) they had performed Christian works, through the power of the Holy Spirit. But they had never accepted Christ.

Hey, 'i' am not a Johny'come'late guy. Give me scripture for Lucifer not being created perfect, sinless + NOT ACCEPTING CHRIST as he was the covering Cherub over the ETERNAL MERCY SEAT OF HEAVENS THRONE/ROOM! And who knows for how long that was even?? ... or the Created VERY good Adam needing the Born Again REQUIREMENT before he fell from Grace??? And how does one accepting Christ, omit the Eternal Gospel of Christ?? Rev. 14:6 with Heb. 13:8 + 9?? Christ the same for ETERNITY!

Perhaps you are not coming across clear in your post to me??

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

You can get your answer in Rev, 3:16

Hummm...What does "spew you out of my mouth" mean to you in this context? Does it mean "not save you"? If so, I agree with you.

Yes, 'i' think we heard the Holy Spirit correctly.

The works that the question was about, is the Born Again LOVE that these ones 'were given' as per John 3:3. And as the Inspired verse states, [THIS LOVING WORK] can become [LUKEWARM] as well as the useless to Christ 'indivual'.

What is also seen perhaps? is that in JUDGEMENT the COLD will fare better than these ex/Born Again ones. (compare Heb. 6:6 with verse 1-6 + even Matt. 10:15)

--Elijah

Then we agree, works affect salvation.