Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[Merry Menagerie]

Good - don't let the door hit you on the way out ;)

 

[Orthodoxy]

Merry Menagerie

one of them (can't remember which one) even complained and said something along the lines of "Why do you disturb me?"

Yes. That is a magnificant example of the dead from this life at rest. He was upset to be disturbed in his rest of death from this life:

1 Sam 28:14-15

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up ?

Just something that God does not want us to do: bother the dead.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead "Thy dead men shall live, together WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19." and "And the graves were opened; and many BODIES of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:53. appear to be meaningless scripture to you that may as well be erased.

It appears to me you deny the resurrection using OT scripture to prove death remains the same after Jesus Christ.

Christ is risen from the dead casting down death by death and upon those in the tombs restoring life is the "belief" of the Church and has not changed for 2000 years of Christian worship.

Anti Christian rhetoric only proves one thing:

You are not among us.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

[quote="Merry Menagerie":7e550]Catholics probably erected the statue ;)

Your ignorace is a beacon of darkness to the Orthodox world of light.

Your hate for anything catholic merely shows the veil over your eyes is blinding you to the historical Christian faith.

These statues were erected by protestant christians that run this protestant nation. Idol worshippers all.

Orthodoxy

Ummmm I was joking ;) All I know is that I didn't erect them - therefore i do not worship them...therefore I am not a hypocrite because I DO NOT ERRECT statues. Do not paint everyone with the same brush.[/quote:7e550]

The joke is on you.

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Funny - since you're the only one who sees it that way.

Anymore venom? ..oh Christian! Anymore love to pour out on me? Or are you going to continue to spit venomous poison in my direction.

 

[Remember]

Nicely jumbled. Not a problem. I will rightly divide and expound.

Christ's church does not place any one or group of persons above another.

All Christians are equal parts of His church.

They have their purpose but are still not above any other Christian in God's eyes.

but St Paul wrote
1 Timothy 5:17
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine

I have no problem with this verse at all. That is God's jurisdiction and it doesn't say elders are held in higher esteem than any other Christian in God's eyes. HE will honor who and how he chooses. We are not to do those things, as in the context of what I previously posted. For those who labor in word and doctrine should be every Christian.

For the benefit of others, let me put at least one of my quotes above back into context:

Eph 4:11-12

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

They have their purpose but are still not above any other Christian in God's eyes.

Actually, that list in verse 11 could account for every member of a congregation and 12 states the reasons for them. Quotes are so much better when left in context. It still doesn't state that any are to be exalted above any other by us or are so in the eyes of God. (my original point)

Elders who rule well are those who make sure the truth is told, the needs of the congregation are met and the assembly is conducted in spirit and truth as per Biblical instruction. That does not mean they are lords and masters over anyone. They are chosen by the congregation after they meet proper requirements for the position. All Christians are still to show equal respect to all Christians. No problem.

(I could say "St Remember adds" to make a particular point, but I simply refer to myself as a Christian who worships with the saints of the Lord) :D And I add:

It is also written of those who are given charge of a congregation:
1 Tim 3:1-12
3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop , he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house ((this is outside of any particular church building)), having his children in subjection with all gravity (these are his biological children with his one wife);
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (Same as for bishops)


God tells us so many important things in his Word. :D Isn't it wonderful?

We are being told not to praise, exhault them or to follow THEM. We are to follow Christ only.

Theophilus wrote:

but St Paul wrote
1 Corinthians 4:14-16
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.

[/quote]

If you are going to quote me, please keep it in context. This is what I posted that to:

1 Cor 3:4-7
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul ; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

We are being told not to praise, exhault them or to follow THEM. We are to follow Christ only.

We are told in verse 7 what the planter and the waterer are (in this case referring to Paul and Apollos) : "neither are any thing". The glory goes to "God that giveth the increase".

Now, back to your chosen verse:

in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.

Note to whom the glory is given: Christ Jesus. By the example in Christ Jesus through the gospel are we to imitate. Yes, he was an example in Christ Jesus though the gospel. We also have many examples to follow today that live in Christ Jesus. We will know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16 & 20 Do all in the name of the Lord Col 3:17, not anyone else. Your verse quoted still does not say "praise, exhault them or to follow them", (my original point) that belongs to Christ (John 10:27)

 

[Heidi]

Remember

Mary is dead and gone of this world. We can no more bless her than we can bless Abraham Lincoln.

This is your response and is clearly understood what you think of Mary.

Let me ask you:

Why is it ok to make a huge statue of Abe but not Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Christian God?

Orthodoxy

Christians don't worship a statue of Abraham Lincoln, only pagans do. Again, you need to read the bible to see what God wants Christians to do. You won't find it in the Declaration of Independance! But if the bible tells you not to bow down to statues, would you believe it? No you wouldn't because it says that in Leviticus. You need to read the gospel of Mark to see what Jesus thinks of Mary! Remember Jesus? He's supposed to be whom we worship and believe. It would be wise for you to listen to him. ;-)

 

[Remember]

Remember

Mary is dead and gone of this world. We can no more bless her than we can bless Abraham Lincoln.

This is your response and is clearly understood what you think of Mary.

Let me ask you:

Why is it ok to make a huge statue of Abe but not Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Christian God?

Orthodoxy

Obviously, you have no idea what I think of Mary simply because I have not stated such.

Mary is not alive in this world with us any more. Simple fact.
We cannot bless the dead. Simple fact.
Yes, Mary was blessed. Simple fact.

And that still does not tell you what I think of Mary and that is OK. :D

Let me ask you:

Why is it ok to make a huge statue of Abe but not Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Christian God?

Ex 20:4-5

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (this is an object one would bow down to), or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

I take His first telling us that He does not approve of this behavior as forever. If it is not to God, it is idolatry. (I believe I referenced this subject in an earlier post with NT scriptures) We do not pray to images of God, we pray to God.

I'm not a fan of any statues, but I will say this. The above verses aside, I can't say there has been anyone known to kneel down before a statue of Abe Lincoln, bow their head and pray to Abe. Millions of people do/have knelt down, bowed their heads and prayed to Mary.

I would like to see Biblical reference showing it is God's will for anyone to pray to anyone (including Mary specifically) but God.

These are not referenced to Mary: Matthew 6:9, Luke 11:2

I know of none, Biblically, that are.

THAT is the biggest problem I have with statues of Mary.

Personally, I like Mary, and I thank God she existed. :D Now you know what I think of Mary.

 

[Remember]

Heidi!!! :smt039 (this is as close to a high 5 as they got) :D




I LOVE :smt041 studying the Word of God

 

[Theophilus]

Nicely jumbled. Not a problem. I will rightly divide and expound.

If you think i intentional quoted you out of context, I apologize. That was not my intention.

Elders who rule well are those who make sure the truth is told, the needs of the congregation are met and the assembly is conducted in spirit and truth as per Biblical instruction. That does not mean they are lords and masters over anyone. They are chosen by the congregation after they meet proper requirements for the position. All Christians are still to show equal respect to all Christians.

1 Timothy 5:17 still says DOUBLE honor and if you read the entire chapter you will see it is talking about how the Church is to be run

Also, you should quote St Paul in context
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,†and another, “I am of Apollos,†are you not carnal?

He is talking about divisions

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it.

He is here speaking of works not honor. Read the entire chapter

It is also written of those who are given charge of a congregation:
1 Tim 3:1-12
3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop , he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house ((this is outside of any particular church building)), having his children in subjection with all gravity (these are his biological children with his one wife);
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (Same as for bishops)


God tells us so many important things in his Word. Isn't it wonderful?

Before you assume I am Orthodox, Clergy can marry.

 

[Klee shay]

Question:

If Mary could see you all arguing about this matter today, having raised the Son of God and watched him die willingly on the cross to save all of mankind - would she want to be worshipped if it in any way overshadowed that what her son did?

Remember, she watched him die.

 

[Theophilus]

Remember,
If you have an audio bible i would ask you to listen to it. I am not doubting you intellect, I am only tell you something that worked for me. In this way verse numbers won't divide thoughts, and besides that the way it was intended to be.


Heidi,
Please, before you speak about the use images, (and i do not know if you have or haven't) at least study the theology of iconography. You do not have to agree with it, but at least it will help you understand our entire reasoning.

Klee shay,
If ANYTHING is done that overshadows the glory or worship of God, then it is done in a in a wrong manner. That is not to say the practice is wrong only the EXCESS. I know many protestants who let their study of the bible overshadow their worship (i was one of those). Their quest for knowledge of God turns him into a concept instead their King. Is that to say bible study is wrong? NO, of course not. Anything that is done correctly in the Orthodox faith will lead you to Christ, and Christ alone.

 

[Remember]

Elders who rule well are those who make sure the truth is told, the needs of the congregation are met and the assembly is conducted in spirit and truth as per Biblical instruction. That does not mean they are lords and masters over anyone. They are chosen by the congregation after they meet proper requirements for the position. All Christians are still to show equal respect to all Christians.

1 Timothy 5:17 still says DOUBLE honor and if you read the entire chapter you will see it is talking about how the Church is to be run

Don't cut this verse short. Leave it full like as posted before. I know it speaks of how the church is to be run. That is part of what I referenced in what you quoted me posting above. I also referenced that All Christians should be "they who labour in the word and doctrine" which was on the end of 1 Timothy 5:17 (sorry, but this makes me wonder if you actually read my post)

Also, you should quote St Paul in context
1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,†and another, “I am of Apollos,†are you not carnal?

He is talking about divisions

I know he is talking about divisions. He was telling them they are not of this one or of that one. All are of Christ and to not show special honor and praise to those such as himself or Apollos, etc. They are all of Christ and of Christ's doctrine no matter who told them, who baptized them or who writes to them of the gospel. Christ, only, deserves the glory.

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it.

He is here speaking of works not honor. Read the entire chapter

It is also is referencing who is to receive the glory for all this work being done. God. God's fellow workers, God's field, God's building. Not unlike stated in the previous quote and my previous post, again. It explains how Paul and Apollos are but lowly ministers of the message and God is everything. :D Simple to remember.

It is also written of those who are given charge of a congregation:
1 Tim 3:1-12
3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop , he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house ((this is outside of any particular church building)), having his children in subjection with all gravity (these are his biological children with his one wife);
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (Same as for bishops)


God tells us so many important things in his Word. Isn't it wonderful? /quote]

Before you assume I am Orthodox, Clergy can marry.

I try not to assume anything. There are so many beliefs in the world, I wait till someone tells me of their beliefs. I don't particularly like it when others try to tell me what they think I believe, so I try not to do that to others.

Since I was posting regarding elders, I simply posted about others in similar positions. And as I posted:

God tells us so many important things in his Word. Isn't it wonderful?

 

[Remember]

Remember,
If you have an audio bible i would ask you to listen to it. I am not doubting you intellect, I am only tell you something that worked for me. In this way verse numbers won't divide thoughts, and besides that the way it was intended to be.

Oh, I do have; and I do listen when life permits. Though, I do wish I could quote better. :smt102

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Remember

Mary is dead and gone of this world. We can no more bless her than we can bless Abraham Lincoln.

This is your response and is clearly understood what you think of Mary.

Let me ask you:

Why is it ok to make a huge statue of Abe but not Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Christian God?

Orthodoxy

Christians don't worship a statue of Abraham Lincoln, only pagans do. Again, you need to read the bible to see what God wants Christians to do. You won't find it in the Declaration of Independance! But if the bible tells you not to bow down to statues, would you believe it? No you wouldn't because it says that in Leviticus. You need to read the gospel of Mark to see what Jesus thinks of Mary! Remember Jesus? He's supposed to be whom we worship and believe. It would be wise for you to listen to him. ;-)

People visit the Lincoln memorial and the Vietnam Vet memorial to honor the lives of them whom the stones honor. While the Orthodox do not use statues, I understand quite well what Catholics do with them.

Christians don't worship Mary, either, as you have been told repeatedly. This is the mantra of the bible worshippers 'worship Mary, worship Mary.' They accuse others of worshipping people because that is exactly what they do when they stand in the mirror. 'My reading of the bible is more illumined than my brother- the Holy Spirit prefers me' they say to themselves.
And then they accuse others of idolatry.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi!!! :smt039 (this is as close to a high 5 as they got) :D




I LOVE :smt041 studying the Word of God

Thanks! I also love studying the Word of God, especially when we are constantly bombarded with other teachings from all over the world. God bless you! :angel:

 

[Remember]

Remember

Mary is dead and gone of this world. We can no more bless her than we can bless Abraham Lincoln.

This is your response and is clearly understood what you think of Mary.

Let me ask you:

Why is it ok to make a huge statue of Abe but not Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Christian God?

Orthodoxy

Christians don't worship a statue of Abraham Lincoln, only pagans do. Again, you need to read the bible to see what God wants Christians to do. You won't find it in the Declaration of Independance! But if the bible tells you not to bow down to statues, would you believe it? No you wouldn't because it says that in Leviticus. You need to read the gospel of Mark to see what Jesus thinks of Mary! Remember Jesus? He's supposed to be whom we worship and believe. It would be wise for you to listen to him. ;-)

People visit the Lincoln memorial and the Vietnam Vet memorial to honor the lives of them whom the stones honor. While the Orthodox do not use statues, I understand quite well what Catholics do with them.

Christians don't worship Mary, either, as you have been told repeatedly. This is the mantra of the bible worshippers 'worship Mary, worship Mary.' They accuse others of worshipping people because that is exactly what they do when they stand in the mirror. 'My reading of the bible is more illumined than my brother- the Holy Spirit prefers me' they say to themselves.
And then they accuse others of idolatry.

It saddens me how so many just don't seem to take heed of the lessons from the OT.

Please study this account in 1 Kings 18:22-40

What it all boils down to is that there is no one else to kneel to, to bow down to, to pray to other than God. Doing this (kneeling, bowing, praying) to anyone or anything or to the statue of anyone or anything is nothing more than idolatry and of absolutely no use. To do this to a statue of Mary is no different than doing it to a statue of Baal. No offense meant but it still equals idolatry, plain and simple.

Mary and Baal are not going to hear the prayers. Mary and Baal are not going to answer the prayers. ONLY God hears, listens to and responds to prayers, as shown in this story in 1 Kings.

Remember: 1 Kings 18:39

39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God. :D

If anyone is praying to anyone or anything other than God, they are putting someone or something above God. Since the OT and through now, it is against the Word of God to do so.
(repeat post of scripture Ex 20:4-5, (new scrips) Ex 34:14, 1 Cor 10:14, Col 1:18, Matt 6:9, Rev 22:9, Luke 4:8) Just some examples.

People visit the Lincoln memorial and the Vietnam Vet memorial to honor the lives of them whom the stones honor.

That, again, has nothing to do with worshipping someone other than God and praying to someone other than God. They don't go to the wall to pray to the dead, at least I hope they don't. I do see them praying to God in memory of their lost loved one. Not a problem. I talk to God from time to time in prayer of how I miss my passed loved ones. God expects this.

Matt 5:4

4 Blessed are they that mourn : for they shall be comforted.

statues, I understand quite well what Catholics do with them.

So do I. I gew up in an immense population of Catholics and have always been related to faithfully practicing Catholics to this day. I, too, understand. : And it is not:

Col 3:17

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Christians don't worship Mary

That is true.

They accuse others of worshipping people because that is exactly what they do when they stand in the mirror. 'My reading of the bible is more illumined than my brother- the Holy Spirit prefers me' they say to themselves.

I do hope you will be adding something more constructive than these idle words to the discussion. Scripture would be wonderful:

Matt 12:36-37
(36) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
(37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

James 1:26
(26) If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Eph 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

We have been instructed since the OT to warn others of sin they do:

Ezek 33:8-9

8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

1 Tim 5:20

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Tim 4:2-4

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke , exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And then they accuse others of idolatry.

The scriptures (some as shown above and in previous posts) tell us of idolatry and that we are not to participate. It is what it is and easily understood. Turn away! Nuff said.

Now, back to this poll. I still can't participate because my answer is not available: "Yes, Mary was blessed" period :D

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Remember

Mary is dead and gone of this world. We can no more bless her than we can bless Abraham Lincoln.

This is your response and is clearly understood what you think of Mary.

Let me ask you:

Why is it ok to make a huge statue of Abe but not Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Christian God?

Orthodoxy

Christians don't worship a statue of Abraham Lincoln, only pagans do. Again, you need to read the bible to see what God wants Christians to do. You won't find it in the Declaration of Independance! But if the bible tells you not to bow down to statues, would you believe it? No you wouldn't because it says that in Leviticus. You need to read the gospel of Mark to see what Jesus thinks of Mary! Remember Jesus? He's supposed to be whom we worship and believe. It would be wise for you to listen to him. ;-)

People visit the Lincoln memorial and the Vietnam Vet memorial to honor the lives of them whom the stones honor. While the Orthodox do not use statues, I understand quite well what Catholics do with them.

Christians don't worship Mary, either, as you have been told repeatedly. This is the mantra of the bible worshippers 'worship Mary, worship Mary.' They accuse others of worshipping people because that is exactly what they do when they stand in the mirror. 'My reading of the bible is more illumined than my brother- the Holy Spirit prefers me' they say to themselves.
And then they accuse others of idolatry.

It saddens me how so many just don't seem to take heed of the lessons from the OT.

Please study this account in 1 Kings 18:22-40

What it all boils down to is that there is no one else to kneel to, to bow down to, to pray to other than God.

Stop there.
Rev 3:9
[quote:c86a5]Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

That's Jesus speaking to the Church at Philadelphia.
But let's not stop there- let's go back to the Old Testament that you reference, as if in this instance its contents are to be applied (yet you deny much of its commandments)
Genesis 33:3

And he (Jacob) passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother (Esau).

This is to say nothing of bowing before the Ark of God, or before the altar of sacrifice

[quote="Remeberance]Doing this (kneeling, bowing, praying) to anyone or anything or to the statue of anyone or anything is nothing more than idolatry and of absolutely no use. To do this to a statue of Mary is no different than doing it to a statue of Baal. No offense meant but it still equals idolatry, plain and simple.

Mary and Baal are not going to hear the prayers. Mary and Baal are not going to answer the prayers. [/quote]

Baal sho' nuff ain't going to answer prayer. Mary don't answer prayer either, but I believe that she does pray, which is what some of us ask her- and others in heaven- to do for us.

People visit the Lincoln memorial and the Vietnam Vet memorial to honor the lives of them whom the stones honor.

That, again, has nothing to do with worshipping someone other than God and praying to someone other than God. They don't go to the wall to pray to the dead, at least I hope they don't. I do see them praying to God in memory of their lost loved one. Not a problem. I talk to God from time to time in prayer of how I miss my passed loved ones. God expects this.

Remember this: God is the God of the living, and not the dead. We don't ask any stiffs to pray for us cuz they don't hear. HOWEVER, will it then be your argument that Mary's soul is slumbering, then there is no sense of going forth with this piece of the disagreement.

So do I. I gew up in an immense population of Catholics and have always been related to faithfully practicing Catholics to this day. I, too, understand. : And it is not:

Col 3:17

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Christians don't worship Mary

That is true.

So sez you, but you're bible worshipper, so I take it with a big rock of salt.

Oh how dare I say you're a bible worshipper, right? Even as you insist others worship what they do not in fact worship. Pointless, ain't it?
True.

They accuse others of worshipping people because that is exactly what they do when they stand in the mirror. 'My reading of the bible is more illumined than my brother- the Holy Spirit prefers me' they say to themselves.

I do hope you will be adding something more constructive than these idle words to the discussion. Scripture would be wonderful:

See what I mean? You accuse somone else of worshipping something other than God, then squeal when your own idolatry is pointed out. Scripture? Check this, homie:
John 5:39

"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

Matt 12:36-37
(36) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
(37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

James 1:26
(26) If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Eph 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And one wonders how calling a brother an idolater is not 'careless.'

We have been instructed since the OT to warn others of sin they do:

Ezek 33:8-9

8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

1 Tim 5:20

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Tim 4:2-4

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke , exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[/quote:c86a5]
All these clowns with bibles can't figure out who the verses were addressed to. They all think they are the prophets of God sent out to correct everyone else. Note that the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel, and Paul told Timothy to correct in his role as Apostle and Bishop.

But by all means, bring your corrections, and we shall correct them, since we're now all apostles, cuz all saints are equal.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Remember,

In Exodus 20:4 it states “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.â€Â

Here the context of “graven images†means idols that are worshiped as god, thus it appears there are 2 classifications of images, true images and false images. If man is made in the “IMAGE†of God then men are “ICONS†of God. If this statement is true then taking a picture of your mom is making a graven image and condemned by the bible. Here we are told not to make images of anything “in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth†if this statement is true then we cannot take pictures of our animals, place stuffed animals on our walls and beds, or mount trophy fish. All paintings of animals, fish, people, birds or any scenes of nature are condemned according to this verse of the bible.

A statue according to Church teachings was carved by the woman with the blood issue depicting Jesus with an outstretch hand reaching toward her. Icons were written from this carving in the early 1st century. Saints from the 4th century claim to have seen this carving in their writings. Icons were written from this image of Jesus Christ.

So you see your personal interpretation of the Scripture has alot to be desired as "truth".

I would like to see Biblical reference showing it is God's will for anyone to pray to anyone (including Mary specifically) but God.

We do not "pray" to Mary. We ask Mary to pray for us. If you ask your mother to pray for you are you praying to her? No. So again your personalized interpretation of Scripture is lacking in truth.

Again you have combined the Roman Church with the Orthodox Church. If you bothered to enter an orthodox Church you would see no statues. However it is interesting you people defend the statues and busts in washington as moot even though this is called a "christian nation". Maybe you protestants in America should go tip over some of your idols. They are idols. One does not need to bow to an idol for it to be an idol. The heterdox faith has made an idol out of the bible but you dont see people bowing to it.

Personally, I like Mary, and I thank God she existed. :D Now you know what I think of Mary.

The Church does not think highly of your personal opine.

Orthodoxy

 

[Solo]

Some know the Word of God, and other do not. Jesus is the Word of God. Solo 2005

 

[Remember]

Orthodox Christian said

So sez you, but you're bible worshipper, so I take it with a big rock of salt.

Oh how dare I say you're a bible worshipper, right? Even as you insist others worship what they do not in fact worship. Pointless, ain't it?

Interesting. You don't search the scriptures to know God's word? to know the gospel of Christ? That is what is in the Bible.

You can call me what you want, right or wrong. Wouldn't you rather be right?

I do not kneel down, bow to and pray to the Bible. Nope, I don't worship the Bible. I seek knowledge to know God. The Bible contains the Word of God so I do:

John 5:39

39 Search the scriptures ; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Want to join me? :D