Was reproduction a part of the world prior to the fall?

[reba]

You are not being persecuted.... your personal understanding of Scripture is being questioned.

 

[Deborah13]

Fat does not always mean melted fat, it also means the choicest, fattest, healthiest of his flock and that is what it means here. There is no mention of a sacrifice, nor the blood, nor roasting of an animal, just an offering. The offering Christ gave, was not just an offering of a fat little lamb offered up to God, but his own blood. It does not say a better blood sacrifice than Abel's blood sacrifice. There was no killing of anything until Cain killed Abel. And they did not eat animals until after God gave them permission to after the flood.
Why do you think the animals are afraid of man now, but not then? And in the new earth the animals will live side by side with man as non violence because we will not kill them for food any more, like it used to be, before God allowed us to kill them for food. Noah never sacrificed before the flood on the old world, Adam never sacrificed either. If you can show me where there was an animal sacrifice before Noah's flood meaning before Gen.6, I would LOVE to see it, sincerely!
The new earth will be restored to the way it was, before the fall.
Isa 11:4-9
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
KJV
Gen 9:1-6
9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
KJV

I beg your pardon, I didn't say anything about the fat being animal fat. The fat just meant the best part.
Please address the scripture.
Hebrews 12:24 in relationship to Abel's sacrifice.

 

[Deborah13]

Look up in the Strong's Concordance Hebrew 4503 you will see it says an offering is a gift, usually bloodless, a present.
There are many times that the Jews would offer up an first born clean animal to God with out shedding its blood.
Better things, does not warrant that it was blood. Surely you can find a second blood sacrifice before Gen 6, to confirm Abel as giving the first.

I have done this, here is a few examples.....
Exo 29:38 `And this is that which thou dost prepare on the altar; two lambs, sons of a year, daily continually;
Exo 29:39 the one lamb thou dost prepare in the morning, and the second lamb thou dost prepare between the evenings;
Exo 29:41 `And the second lamb thou dost prepare between the evenings; according to the present of the morning, and according to its libation, thou dost prepare for it, for sweet fragrance, a fire-offering [4503], to Yehovah: --
Exo 30:9 `Ye do not cause strange perfume to go up upon it, and burnt-offering [4503], and present[grain], and libation ye do not pour out on it;
Exo 40:29 and the altar of the burnt-offering [4503] he hath set at the opening of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting, and causeth the burnt-offering to go up upon it, and the present, as Yehovah hath commanded Moses.
There are three and there may be more, I didn't check every one of them.
However, it is Hebrews 12:24 that compares the blood of Christ to the blood of Abel's offering. BUT we also have this which speaks louder than Hebrews 12:24.
Heb 11:4 by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak.
Heb 12:23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to a mediator of a new covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!

Now would you please show me a scripture where an animal is an offering but it's blood is not shed. I don't remember such an offering, not saying it's not there.

 

[reba]

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

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[Fish Catcher Jim]

What do you think?

Genesis 1:26-28 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Be fruitful and multiply..........continue building the garden. If adam would not have fallen the garden would have covered the entire earth.......Man (adam ) fouled things up when he lost the garden and the anointing BUT God has given it back to us through the edan covenant........Study the OT and find some good anointed studies and you will see this too.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

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[TheCurseoftheRodain]

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[Deborah13]

2 Peter 3:4-8
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV
Do you understand that Generations, means more that one? Are you expecting a NEW heaven and earth in your time?
Gen 2:4
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
KJV

It doesn't say the generations of people, it is of the heavens and the earth. Think a little poetically here, people generations are determined by births. (births of the heavens and one earth)
Young's Literal Translation - Hebrew
Gen 2:4 These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Yehovah God's making earth and heavens;
H8435
תּלדה תּולדה
tôledâh tôledâh
to-led-aw', to-led-aw'
From H3205; (plural only) descent, that is, family; (figuratively) history: - birth, generations.

 

[Deborah13]

When God breathed life into the body made out of dust it became alive in the image of God.
Adam looked just like God. It was said God was fire from the loins up and from the loins down. So was adam before the fall. This is how and why God could come into the garden and walk and talk with adam. After the fall adam LOST the ANOINTING if you will of God and became just like man is today.

Sorry Jim, I'm not sure how your response answers these two questions.
4afaithfulone, wrote this...
"Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed for until God covered them in skin, they had no genitals."
I asked this....

Where did you get this idea from?
They had no knowledge of evil so why would they be ashamed of being naked?

I was asking why Adam and Eve would be ashamed of their nakedness Before the fall, not after it.
She is saying that the reason they weren't ashamed, before the fall, is because they didn't have male and female genitals.
I'm saying why would they being ashamed before the fall, even it they did have them. There is nothing sinful about the human body and they had no knowledge of evil vs good. In other words, no knowledge of sexual lusts that are sin. And before the fall, they had no reason to hide from God, they were innocent.
Does this explanation make a difference in what it may have sounded like I was saying?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

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[Obadiah]

This applies to everyone. Read and follow the specific guidelines for this forum posted here and quoted below.


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[Sinthesis]

Was reproduction a part of the world prior to the fall?

Gen 3:2 - And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:​

Remember that fruit production is a part of the reproductive process for flowering plants. Because there was fruit before the fall, reproduction had to have been at least initiated at some level prior to the fall, literally speaking.

 

[Deborah13]

Fish Catcher Jim
This is why I think it is important to know that man from the very beginning knew he/she knew he is a sinner in need of repentance and that by a blood sacrifice were looking forward to the cross of our Redeemer. They knew God was their Redeemer but man stopped remembering. We now remember by the Lord's Supper.
God said that all men were without excuse and that they had known Him but they had gone off on their own into evil ways and became idolators.
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:21 because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
Rom 1:22 professing to be wise, they were made fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
Rom 1:25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Fish Catcher Jim
This is why I think it is important to know that man from the very beginning knew he/she knew he is a sinner in need of repentance and that by a blood sacrifice were looking forward to the cross of our Redeemer. They knew God was their Redeemer but man stopped remembering. We now remember by the Lord's Supper.
God said that all men were without excuse and that they had known Him but they had gone off on their own into evil ways and became idolators.
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:21 because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
Rom 1:22 professing to be wise, they were made fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
Rom 1:25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.

Hi Deborah,
I am not sure why you are telling me this. I have not questioned this. A bit confused on that.lol
From the beginning you do mean after the fall right ?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Ok, Lets just go off of what you believe. Abel was saved and a man of God because HE(Abel) gave his best to God?

Edited violation of 1.3 ToS reba
If you look into Hebrew scripture you will find it indicates that Cain brought or offered to God Third picking.
Third or late picking is worthless and not much good for anything but animal feed
REFERENCE...........The Chumash, ed Rabbi Nosson Scherman, Art Scroll Series, Stone Edition, Travel Size (Brooklyn Mesorah Publications, 1998...p.21

In Gen 4:7 you see.........if you do well, will you not be excepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And it's desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

Now God called that type of offering sin. God did not condemn Cain right away. God gave cain another opertunity as to repent and do it again or offer up his best. You see this in Gen 4:7 ..above
However cain got offended....all cain cared about was getting the blessing. Cain aloud the devil to get him so riled and angry that he killed abel. Abel from the start brought his best.....God excepted this......from the Start.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deborah,
I am not sure why you are telling me this. I have not questioned this. A bit confused on that.lol
From the beginning you do mean after the fall right ?

No, from the beginning of creation as Romans 1 states. I believe....
When Adam and Eve transgressed God's law in the garden God provide the first blood shed for man, not His own but that of an animal and covered them. The first type of blood atonement. Abel continued to worship and honor God, Cain didn't think he needed to obey the rules and could make an offering of his own liking. Seeing that there were others present in the world at that time, we know that there were others who had also turn away from God. By the time of the flood only Noah and his family were still worshiping God in the manner that God had given to man. Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean because he had been sacrificing the clean animals as God had done in the garden as an example for man to follow. This is a type, a shadow, just as the Law of Moses was.
In the NT, Jesus tells us to partake of the Last Supper as to remember His body and His blood atonement, the anti-type.
God never left man at any time without a means to stay in fellowship with Him and to help man remember about God, who was/is his Redeemer. Romans says it was man who forgot about God and turned away. God never forsook man, man forsook God.
Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:21 because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
I think when we partake of the body and blood of Christ, we are giving thanks, are we not?
They stopped giving thanks to God as their Redeemer, they stopped sacrificing as a thanks for giving them a means to atone, temporary though it was, until God once again provided the sacrifice, this time through the blood of His Son.
We see it again when Paul talks to the Greek philosophers of his time about the tribute to the 'unknown God', the one true God that they said, they could not know. God promised, through the words of the prophets, that if one were to seek Him with all their heart, Paul says grope for Him, they would find Him because He is not far away. They worship Him but not as the one true God and their Redeemer.
Act 17:22 And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
Act 17:23 for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God--unknown; whom, therefore--not knowing--ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
Act 17:24 `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,

 

[dianegcook]

To whom it may concern:
Yes, I believe in 3 world and heaven ages.
1st
Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if thou have understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof? Who hath stretched the line upon it?
Who laid the cornerstone thereof?

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isa.14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning...(morning star)
Lucifer, Strongs#1966 Hebrew, meaning (in the sense of brightness) the morning star-Lucifer.

Rev.22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches, I am the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Then,.....
Rev.12:4,
Satan, Lucifer, dragon, drew the third of the stars of heaven.
The Rebellion..

I believe we all existed spiritually, before flesh. A third followed Satan.
God loved His children so much, He didn't want anyone to perish, thus this world and heaven age.
All will be born in the flesh, (except Satan and some of his angels and archangels).
2nd now, flesh
Blood had to be shed, for forgiveness., thus God Himself took on the flesh also.
Rom.9:11-28
22; And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Christ fulfilled this.

We are here folks to choose whom we will serve!
Lucifer or God.

3rd
The Age to come.
please don't hurt me, lol

How can one understand the ending, if one can't understand the beginning....

 

[dianegcook]

So you are saying Lucifer is the morning star and Jesus says he is that morning star. So i have to choose between Jesus or God?.

What?
No, God or Lucifer
I didn't say Lucifer is/was the morning star, nor Jesus is the morning star.
God's word did, have you read?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I'm not sure what definition you are using for "reproduction" (human sexual reproduction?, animal sexual reproduction?, plant reproduction?, God's reproduction of another human, God's reproduction of the Earth's firmament, etc,)

For example, prior to The Fall, God reproduced another human:

Genesis 2:22-23 (LEB) And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
​

Also, I'm not sure if your definition fits within the Text that describes God's reproduction of the Earth's form or not in day two:

Genesis 1:2, 7 (LEB) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ... And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

​

This is just a start to answer post # 1on: Was reproduction a part of the world prior to the fall? from the above post.