WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[stovebolts]

m not here to debate the Sabbath.
Originally I was here to describe the difference between fulfill and abolished.
But that seems to have gone awry.

It comes from Matthew 5 and many take that out of context and put it into covenant theology where it doesn't belong.
To simplify, to fulfill the commandments simply means you were able to live out a commandment as it was intended by God to be lived out.
To abolish a commandment simply means to grossly mis the intent of a commandment and live it out in a way that is contrary to God's intent. Abolish in this context does not mean the commandment is made void by a new covenant. What it means is the commandment has been made void (ineffective) by it's gross misinterpretation resulting in the misapplication of the commandment.

 

[Drew]

torah doesn't say food defiles you man says that - so not a challenge to the torah - a challenge to man made laws that contradict torah - man made laws are not found in torah - they are found in books man writes

The Law of Moses is clear that certain foods are not for the Jew - this is all over the place in the Torah. Are you trying to suggest that because the Law says "don't eat X" instead of "don't eat X because X defiles you", we can therefore conclude that God is denying that eating X would not defile you?

That would not be a credible argument - it is well known from history that Jews considered certain foods unclean because they are told not to eat them in the Law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

The Law of Moses is clear that certain foods are not for the Jew - this is all over the place in the Torah. Are you trying to suggest that because the Law says "don't eat X" instead of "don't eat X because X defiles you", we can therefore conclude that God is denying that eating X would not defile you?

That would not be a credible argument - it is well known from history that Jews considered certain foods unclean because they are told not to eat them in the Law of Moses.

So true. A read of Leviticus 11 will clear up the matter.


For I am the LORD your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. For I am the LORD who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.’ ” Leviticus 11:44-47


I find it interesting that people claim the law of Moses is the holy law of God, then turn around and say these laws were man made laws.


Paul said it best —


Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
1 Timothy 1:5-7



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Christ has fulfilled the law it can be abolished (set aside as obsolete).

Not to be confused with the law being destroyed and trampled on and overthrown. His coming does not do that. His coming simply makes the law of Moses obsolete. There is no reason, for example, for a person circumcised in heart through faith in Christ to have to be circumcised in the flesh. It's not that the command to be circumcised is broken and violated in Christ, but rather there is simply no reason to do by the hands of men that which is already done by the Spirit of God.

If a law is abolished, it's the same as being destroyed.
It doesn't exist anymore ---

I agree with the rest of your post.
Except...could you tell us what the Law of Moses is?

In just a few words please.

 

[GodsGrace]

The 'sign' commands of the law were circumcision and keeping the Sabbath rest. Both were signs that you were in covenant with God.

They remain signs that show one is in covenant with God. The believers rest in Christ from the taskmaster of the flesh, and the putting off of the flesh in spiritual circumcision are signs that a person is in covenant with God.

The law is an illustration of spiritual realities.

Actually, circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant
and the Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

The reason we are not under obedience to those two signs is because we are
members of the New Covenant, whose sign is Communion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If a law is abolished, it's the same as being destroyed.

As I explained in an earlier post, 'abolish' can mean one of two things. It depends on which Greek word is used for that abolishing.

One Greek word that we translate as 'abolish' is used in regard to destroying and violating the law. That is the Greek word Jesus used. He said he did not come to do that.

Meanwhile, Paul said Christ did abolish the law. The Greek word translated 'abolish' that he used means to set aside the law as ineffectual and obsolete.

Hebrews talks about how the old covenant of law was set aside because it is obsolete. It simply isn't needed anymore.

13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete...
Hebrews 8:13

There's no reason to try to accomplish something in the old way of the law/ old covenant that has already been accomplished perfectly and forever through faith in Christ in this New Covenant. That doesn't violate the old way. it simply makes it obsolete and unneeded now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The reason we are not under obedience to those two signs is because we are
members of the New Covenant, whose sign is Communion.

The reason we are not under literal obligation to those two signs (Sabbath keeping and circumcision) is because we are already at rest in the new way of Christ, and circumcised in the new say of the Spirit.

There's no reason to enter into a sabbath rest you already have in Christ, and no reason to obtain a circumcision that you already have by the Spirit. That would be like saying you must go to work in your old '56 Buick when you've already arrived at work in your brand new Maserati. That doesn't destroy the Buick, it simply makes it obsolete and no longer needed......but still neat to look at and admire and even take for a drive once in a while.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...the New Covenant, whose sign is Communion.

I disagree because that's still an outward sign.
Anyone can take Communion. It proves nothing about the spiritual condition of the partaker. But the absence of sin in a genuine spiritual rest from sin, and the absence of sin in a genuine spiritual circumcision are very much signs that one is in Covenant with God, through Christ.

Isaiah 58 is where we get a glimpse into what constitutes a true Sabbath Rest--a rest from the taskmaster of the flesh driving us as slaves into sin and into the freedom of obedience to the commands of God.

 

[Drew]

NO FOOD DEFILES.
What TYPE of Law would you say that is?
Does the food you eat have anything to do with morality?

Leviticus 11:4

Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you

Food does indeed defile.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok.

Please show us in the New Testament where observing the Sabbath as the law of Moses required was taught by Jesus, or Paul or anyone.


How is not kindling a fire to cook, somehow a moral law?



JLB

The N.T. is full of verses about following our conscience.
A conscience that has been trained in the way of God, will also
hear the voice of God.

If we do not do what we hear,,,it is sin for us.

Romans 14:1-10
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.


1 Timothy 1:18-19
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.


I don't understand your comment about a fire and the moral law.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok.

Please show us in the New Testament where observing the Sabbath as the law of Moses required was taught by Jesus, or Paul or anyone.


How is not kindling a fire to cook, somehow a moral law?



JLB

P.S.
As stated previously,
I'm not here to discuss the Sabbath.

 

[Truthfrees]

The Law of Moses is clear that certain foods are not for the Jew - this is all over the place in the Torah. Are you trying to suggest that because the Law says "don't eat X" instead of "don't eat X because X defiles you", we can therefore conclude that God is denying that eating X would not defile you?

That would not be a credible argument - it is well known from history that Jews considered certain foods unclean because they are told not to eat them in the Law of Moses.

scripture please - you are saying things scripture doesn't say

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s simple to understand.

Yet there are some Christians who promote the idea of becoming physically circumcised and not eating certain foods, and observing one day over another, because they believe keeping the law of Moses is required by Christians.


Some even attend synagogues to sit under unbelieving Jews who teach that Jesus was not the Messiah but rather a false prophet, to learn from them about the law of Moses.


Then they come to these Forums to teach Christians to observe the things they were taught in these synagogues.




JLB

Keeping the Law of Moses is no longer required for the followers of Jesus.
BUT within the Law of Moses are the 10 commandments.
These must be kept.

OR
you have become like those that state we do not need to follow the commandments in order to be or remain saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

In the New Covenant, we are priests and the Lord Himself is our High Priest.



JLB

Of course...
BUT we DO NOT have priests.

 

[Truthfrees]

It was not a good idea to eat pork back then due to health problem with parasites.

If we are circumcised, or we eat pork or we do NOT eat pork...will make no difference to God.
If we hate God or steal or covet,,,,then we will be sinning.

I'm finding it strange that this is so difficult to understand.

do you know that pigs eat garbage and dead things and sometimes tiny living baby pigs? - pigs are carnivores and scavengers - they also root in the dirt and feces etc and so in many ways are not a good food source - the herbivores God told us to eat don't do any of these piggish things

i don't have a problem with anyone doing what they believe is pleasing to God

i'm blessed to keep torah

the only point i like to make in torah discussions is that God's original laws had/have/will always have really profoundly wise basis - iow they are not outdated - science actually catches up the the bible - science has discovered that the autoimmune protocol diet is the best way to keep our immune systems from turning on us and attacking us - funny thing jews have discovered the aip is the exact diet God prescribed which christians today say has passed away/no longer applies

thanks for the discussion - thanks for being an honorable poster - i love how you never try to bully anyone into accepting your views - and how you are accepting of other's views - you make this forum a nicer place via your wonderful attitude and behavior

God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

It comes from Matthew 5 and many take that out of context and put it into covenant theology where it doesn't belong.
To simplify, to fulfill the commandments simply means you were able to live out a commandment as it was intended by God to be lived out.

OK!
Just as Jesus did do.

To abolish a commandment simply means to grossly mis the intent of a commandment and live it out in a way that is contrary to God's intent. Abolish in this context does not mean the commandment is made void by a new covenant. What it means is the commandment has been made void (ineffective) by it's gross misinterpretation resulting in the misapplication of the commandment.

In Matthew 5 Fulfill means to practice, or live-out the law.
Abolish means to break and/or teach others to break the law.

Jesus was speaking of the Moral Law, which is contained in the Law of Moses, as we see that right after these verses, He goes on to explain moral conditions.

 

[stovebolts]

Abolish means to break and/or teach others to break the law.

Correct. But just to be clear, Jesus wasn't referring to a blatent, anarchist or rebellious type of teaching. It is simply to say that many laws were misunderstood and as a result, they were lived out improperly. This is what Jesus meant, and it is what the crowd heard.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I explained in an earlier post, 'abolish' can mean one of two things. It depends on which Greek word is used for that abolishing.

One Greek word that we translate as 'abolish' is used in regard to destroying and violating the law. That is the Greek word Jesus used. He said he did not come to do that.

Meanwhile, Paul said Christ did abolish the law. The Greek word translated 'abolish' that he used means to set aside the law as ineffectual and obsolete.

Hebrews talks about how the old covenant of law was set aside because it is obsolete. It simply isn't needed anymore.

13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete...
Hebrews 8:13

There's no reason to try to accomplish something in the old way of the law/ old covenant that has already been accomplished perfectly and forever through faith in Christ in this New Covenant. That doesn't violate the old way. it simply makes it obsolete and unneeded now.

It's just wording Jethro.
If I set aside a law
or
I destroy that law
the result is the same....it is no longer in effect.
I really hate to debate wording instead of the topic.
UNLESS the wording is very important.

I believe in Matthew 5 the word abolish means to break or cause others to break.
Jesus wanted to explain God's word....not undermine it.

We don't learn the Covenants by reading Hebrews.
I'm afraid it's much more complicated than that, as you must surely know.
No Covenant has ever been abolished completely, only changed or made better.

I agree with your last paragraph.

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct. But just to be clear, Jesus wasn't referring to a blatent, anarchist or rebellious type of teaching. It is simply to say that many laws were misunderstood and as a result, they were lived out improperly. This is what Jesus meant, and it is what the crowd heard.

Yes,,,I just posted this to Jethro Bodine .

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason we are not under literal obligation to those two signs (Sabbath keeping and circumcision) is because we are already at rest in the new way of Christ, and circumcised in the new say of the Spirit.

There's no reason to enter into a sabbath rest you already have in Christ, and no reason to obtain a circumcision that you already have by the Spirit. That would be like saying you must go to work in your old '56 Buick when you've already arrived at work in your brand new Maserati. That doesn't destroy the Buick, it simply makes it obsolete and no longer needed......but still neat to look at and admire and even take for a drive once in a while.

You can say it how you want to.
But we ARE members of the New Covenant.
And the N.C. does not require circumcision or keeping the 7th day holy.
God said He would put the laws in our heart.
Ezekiel 36:26
Jeremiah 31:33

It's all a matter of the heart.