WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Drew]

Do not covet is in the 10 commandments.

I hope you answer my request asking that you explain what Paul meant about the law making him covet all the more.

I will simply use Paul's own words:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind

The command generated sinful impulses in Paul. Period.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So YES, I do suggest that the 10 continue on while the others are "done away" with.

I understand there are laws that do not require literal fulfillment by the people of God in this New Covenant, and I understand there are laws that do. But I don't think the dividing line between the two is the line between the 10 Commandments and the rest of the law.

James talks about the necessity for the church to keep the law concerning favoritism (Leviticus 19:15); the law concerning widows and orphans (Deuteronomy 14:28-29,10:18; and, of course, what he calls the royal law, Leviticus 19:18. All of which are outside of the 10 Commandments.

And Paul shows us that Leviticus 18:8 is to be kept by the fact he told the church at Corinth to expel the man from among them who was sleeping with his father's wife.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By you and others - no writer of scripture, nor Jesus, categorizes scripture in the sense that you are. Where does any writer of scripture say that such and such laws are to be retained and such and such other laws are to be discarded?

The book of Hebrews talks about the setting aside of the temple and priestly law.

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." - Hebrews 7:18-19

"...a matter of food and drink and various ceremonaial washings-external regulations applying until the time of the new order." - Hebrews 9:10

"By calling this covenant 'new, ' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear" - Hebrews 8:13

But we all knew this already without even reading Hebrews for ourselves knowing that Christ's sacrifice is what made it so animal sacrifices in an earthly temple don't need to be made anymore.

Meanwhile, as I've pointed out, other parts of the NT talk plainly about those laws that are not set aside and are to be kept by us. So there is definitely a division of law to be considered here. Ceremonial laws of worship concerning temple and priesthood have been made obsolete and no longer needed, while various laws of personal conduct and interaction remain to be kept by the people of God as I have shown in my previous post..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Also, notice here how Paul does not include the command for literal circumcision in with keeping the requirements of the law, yet circumcision is clearly a requirement of the law:

"26So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the c written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." - Romans 2:26-27

The law of circumcision (Leviticus 12:3) is not being included with keeping the law's requirements. That's a clear division of law.

 

[GodsGrace]

The 10 Commandments were from the law of Moses and included the Sabbath requirements as dictated by that law.


His Commandments refer to the law of Christ and are referred to throughout the writings of the New Testament.


Example:


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:24


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



His commandments refer to love and forgiveness, both of which He taught us about and carry the penalty of eternal damnation if not obeyed.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:24


Then there are the works of the flesh, most of which are not mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

Not mentioned in the 10 Commandments are highlighted in red.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


again


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor
nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


again


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10



JLB

I have said several times that Jesus gave us more to follow and raised the bar.
This does not mean that the 10 commandments have been abolished.
It means they have been fulfilled.
Jesus ESTABLISHED the moral law.
He explained it.
He illustrated it by keeping it.

To fulfill means to make complete...

FULFIL

fool-fil' (male; pleroo, teleo, with other words):

"Fulfill" is used

(1) in a sense more or less obsolete, "to fill up," complete (Genesis 29:21,28; Exodus 23:26; Job 36:17, the Revised Version (British and American) "full," margin "filled up"; Matthew 3:15, "to fulfill all righteousness"; Philippians 2:2, "Fulfil ye my joy," the American Standard Revised Version "make full"; compare 2 Corinthians 10:6);

(2) in the sense of "to accomplish," "to carry into effect," as to fulfill the word of Yahweh (1 Kings 2:27; 8:15,24; 2 Chronicles 36:21, etc.); in the New Testament very frequently used of the fulfillment of prophetic Scripture (Matthew 1:22; 2:15, etc.). Love is declared to be "the fulfillment (pleroma, "fullness") of the law" (Romans 13:10). For "fulfill" the Revised Version (British and American) has "do" (Revelation 17:17); for "fulfilled" has "performed" (2 Samuel 14:22), "accomplished" (Ezra 1:1; Matthew 5:18; 24:34; Luke 21:32; John 19:28), with numerous other changes.

Fulfil Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

What is Fulfil? Definition and meaning:FULFIL fool-fil' (male; pleroo, teleo, with other words): 'Fulfill' is used (1) in a sense more or less obsolete, 'to fill up,' complet.

www.biblestudytools.com

If you notice, all those examples you gave have to do with morality.

 

[GodsGrace]

By you and others - no writer of scripture, nor Jesus, categorizes scripture in the sense that you are. Where does any writer of scripture say that such and such laws are to be retained and such and such other laws are to be discarded?

I don't like not answering your posts,,,but how many times can I say the same thing?

Circumcision is no longer required as per Paul.
This is A CEREMONIAL LAW.

Debts were handled in a specific way.
This is a CIVIL LAW.

Can YOU keep the ceremonial laws from 4,000 years ago?
Can YOU keep the civil laws from 4,000 years ago?

NO.

BUT are you required to love God, honor mother and father, not steal, not want your neighbor's property, etc....
These are MORAL LAWS and are in force to this day.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will simply use Paul's own words:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind

The command generated sinful impulses in Paul. Period.

But do you understand Paul's words.

Please us your own words to describe what he said above.

And, once again, you really must post the book, chapter and verse.
Don't assume everyone reading along knows how to find the verse you post.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand there are laws that do not require literal fulfillment by the people of God in this New Covenant, and I understand there are laws that do. But I don't think the dividing line between the two is the line between the 10 Commandments and the rest of the law.

James talks about the necessity for the church to keep the law concerning favoritism (Leviticus 19:15); the law concerning widows and orphans (Deuteronomy 14:28-29,10:18; and, of course, what he calls the royal law, Leviticus 19:18. All of which are outside of the 10 Commandments.

And Paul shows us that Leviticus 18:8 is to be kept by the fact he told the church at Corinth to expel the man from among them who was sleeping with his father's wife.

The 3 categories can actually intertwine.
For instance...the Mosaic Law told how to handle the stealing of cattle.
This would fall under either DO NOT STEAL or even DO NOT COVET YOUR NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.

Widows and orphans would be LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.
Widows and orphans had a terrible time back then. There was no way for them to earn money and depended on charity. I'd say leviticus 19 is the same.

Sleeping with his father's wife: DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, which also includes other acts of immorality.

Also, as I've stated many times now....there are MORE than the 10... I give the example of behavioral attitudes which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 5.3...... The Beatitudes.

 

[JLB]

I have said several times that Jesus gave us more to follow and raised the bar.
This does not mean that the 10 commandments have been abolished.
It means they have been fulfilled.
Jesus ESTABLISHED the moral law.
He explained it.
He illustrated it by keeping it.

To fulfill means to make complete...

FULFIL

fool-fil' (male; pleroo, teleo, with other words):

"Fulfill" is used

(1) in a sense more or less obsolete, "to fill up," complete (Genesis 29:21,28; Exodus 23:26; Job 36:17, the Revised Version (British and American) "full," margin "filled up"; Matthew 3:15, "to fulfill all righteousness"; Philippians 2:2, "Fulfil ye my joy," the American Standard Revised Version "make full"; compare 2 Corinthians 10:6);

(2) in the sense of "to accomplish," "to carry into effect," as to fulfill the word of Yahweh (1 Kings 2:27; 8:15,24; 2 Chronicles 36:21, etc.); in the New Testament very frequently used of the fulfillment of prophetic Scripture (Matthew 1:22; 2:15, etc.). Love is declared to be "the fulfillment (pleroma, "fullness") of the law" (Romans 13:10). For "fulfill" the Revised Version (British and American) has "do" (Revelation 17:17); for "fulfilled" has "performed" (2 Samuel 14:22), "accomplished" (Ezra 1:1; Matthew 5:18; 24:34; Luke 21:32; John 19:28), with numerous other changes.

Fulfil Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

What is Fulfil? Definition and meaning:FULFIL fool-fil' (male; pleroo, teleo, with other words): 'Fulfill' is used (1) in a sense more or less obsolete, 'to fill up,' complet.

www.biblestudytools.com

If you notice, all those examples you gave have to do with morality.

What is required for us to remain in Christ?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't like not answering your posts,,,but how many times can I say the same thing?

Circumcision is no longer required as per Paul.
This is A CEREMONIAL LAW.

Debts were handled in a specific way.
This is a CIVIL LAW.

Can YOU keep the ceremonial laws from 4,000 years ago?
Can YOU keep the civil laws from 4,000 years ago?

NO.

BUT are you required to love God, honor mother and father, not steal, not want your neighbor's property, etc....
These are MORAL LAWS and are in force to this day.

How about the Sabbath. It’s the 4th commandment?

Is not cooking on Saturday a moral law?



JLB

 

[jasonc]

do you know that pigs eat garbage and dead things and sometimes tiny living baby pigs? - pigs are carnivores and scavengers - they also root in the dirt and feces etc and so in many ways are not a good food source - the herbivores God told us to eat don't do any of these piggish things

i don't have a problem with anyone doing what they believe is pleasing to God

i'm blessed to keep torah

the only point i like to make in torah discussions is that God's original laws had/have/will always have really profoundly wise basis - iow they are not outdated - science actually catches up the the bible - science has discovered that the autoimmune protocol diet is the best way to keep our immune systems from turning on us and attacking us - funny thing jews have discovered the aip is the exact diet God prescribed which christians today say has passed away/no longer applies

thanks for the discussion - thanks for being an honorable poster - i love how you never try to bully anyone into accepting your views - and how you are accepting of other's views - you make this forum a nicer place via your wonderful attitude and behavior

God bless you

Off-topic so do crabs and lobsters and mollusks are the filter of the water .yet not banned.eat raw oyster and see .here people have been sickened by algae as red tide has hit these as even cooked the toxin remained

 

[GodsGrace]

What is required for us to remain in Christ?



JLB

You've known me 5 years JLB.
I'm not arguing this with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about the Sabbath. It’s the 4th commandment?

Is not cooking on Saturday a moral law?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will simply use Paul's own words:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind

The command generated sinful impulses in Paul. Period.

While very true, the law can not do this in the person who is divorced from sinful flesh (divorced by reason of death of the flesh) and now married to Christ. This is explained in Romans 7:1-6.

5For when we were in the realm of the flesh, a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us (the flesh), we have been released from the law (to make us sin) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. - Romans 7:5-6

This 'new way' of the Spirit leads us into an upholding of the law (minus the ceremonial aspects of it, of course, as Hebrews explains).

"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." - Romans 3:31

Through the Spirit we keep the very law that, ironically, once caused us to not keep it when we were still 'married' to sinful flesh.

 

[GodsGrace]

While very true, the law can not do this in the person who is divorced from sinful flesh (divorced by reason of death of the flesh) and now married to Christ. This is explained in Romans 7:1-6.

5For when we were in the realm of the flesh, a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us (the flesh), we have been released from the law (to make us sin) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. - Romans 7:5-6

This 'new way' of the Spirit leads us into an upholding of the law (minus the ceremonial aspects of it, of course, as Hebrews explains).

"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." - Romans 3:31

Through the Spirit we keep the very law that, ironically, once caused us to not keep it when we were still 'married' to sinful flesh.

I like to say that when we were in the flesh we were slaves to sin.
The commandments served to show us what sin is and how we sin
and will sin, even though we may not want to.
Romans 7:15-20

§The Israelites were unable to keep the law of their own strength because the law just magnifies how sinful we are.

But now, we are able to keep the law because the Holy Spirit dwells in us and gives us the strength we did not have before, and so we are helped.
John 14:15-18 15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Role of the Spirit
16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Off-topic so do crabs and lobsters and mollusks are the filter of the water .yet not banned.eat raw oyster and see .here people have been sickened by algae as red tide has hit these as even cooked the toxin remained

I think lobster was not known in O.T. times,
but I seem to remember that this type of fish WAS banned.
Not sure.

 

[JLB]

You've known me 5 years JLB.
I'm not arguing this with you.

Its a question.

Not an argument.

Here is how the scripture teaches us to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Its a question.

Not an argument.

Here is how the scripture teaches us to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


JLB

Did you think I'd say something different?
Jesus is God.
HIS commandments are God's commandments.
In fact, He has more.
He raised the bar.

So we also fulfill the law by loving God, ourselves and our nieghbor.

Does the fact that we FULFILL the law mean that we have destroyed it or made it obsolete?
NO!

 

[JLB]

Did you think I'd say something different?
Jesus is God.
HIS commandments are God's commandments.
In fact, He has more.
He raised the bar.

So we also fulfill the law by loving God, ourselves and our nieghbor.

Does the fact that we FULFILL the law mean that we have destroyed it or made it obsolete?
NO!

Jesus fulfilled the law which is why it is taken out of the way, having been made obsolete.


Remember the point I made about this ?


Nothing would pass from the law UNTIL it was fulfilled.

Because it was fulfilled it has become obsolete and taken out of the way.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus fulfilled the law which is why it is taken out of the way, having been made obsolete.


Remember the point I made about this ?


Nothing would pass from the law UNTIL it was fulfilled.

Because it was fulfilled it has become obsolete and taken out of the way.



JLB

We understand the word FULFILLED differently.
If the law has been made obsolete....
then we are not required to obey the 10 commandments or any of the commandments.
later....