WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[jaybo]

do you know that pigs eat garbage and dead things and sometimes tiny living baby pigs? - pigs are carnivores and scavengers - they also root in the dirt and feces etc and so in many ways are not a good food source - the herbivores God told us to eat don't do any of these piggish things

i don't have a problem with anyone doing what they believe is pleasing to God

i'm blessed to keep torah

the only point i like to make in torah discussions is that God's original laws had/have/will always have really profoundly wise basis - iow they are not outdated - science actually catches up the the bible - science has discovered that the autoimmune protocol diet is the best way to keep our immune systems from turning on us and attacking us - funny thing jews have discovered the aip is the exact diet God prescribed which christians today say has passed away/no longer applies

thanks for the discussion - thanks for being an honorable poster - i love how you never try to bully anyone into accepting your views - and how you are accepting of other's views - you make this forum a nicer place via your wonderful attitude and behavior

God bless you

Having raised pigs I can say that they are clean, loving animals that are a great source of protein throughout the world. They are unclean under the Old Covenant only.

Acts 10:9-15, "About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree because that's still an outward sign.
Anyone can take Communion. It proves nothing about the spiritual condition of the partaker. But the absence of sin in a genuine spiritual rest from sin, and the absence of sin in a genuine spiritual circumcision are very much signs that one is in Covenant with God, through Christ.

Isaiah 58 is where we get a glimpse into what constitutes a true Sabbath Rest--a rest from the taskmaster of the flesh driving us as slaves into sin and into the freedom of obedience to the commands of God.

LOL
You could disagree that the sign of the New Covenant is Communion.
However, that IS the sign of the New Covenant.

Some theologians would say baptism...but I agree with those that
believe communion is the sign because baptism was available even in the O.T.

 

[GodsGrace]

Leviticus 11:4

Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you

Food does indeed defile.

That's not what I asked you.

Do we LISTEN to each other??

This was what I asked:

NO FOOD DEFILES.
What TYPE of Law would you say that is?
Does the food you eat have anything to do with morality?

I'm trying to show you that the O.T. laws are categorized.
I asked you if you think eating or not eating a specific food is
a MORAL LAW.

Because YOU said all the laws are the same...and they are NOT.

 

[Drew]

Romans 7:9 speaks exactly to what I just posted about a new believer.
Paul states that the law is not evil....the sin in his heart, that the law showed him was there, is what is evil. Verse 7.

But the text says what it says - the law against coveting made Paul more covetous - not simply because it "revealed" his covetous - the law actually made him want to covet more than he would otherwise want to!

This is what Paul actually says. We need to accept it and not bend it into something else.

But he always said we are to be moral persons and follow the Moral Law.

You (and others) have created the term "moral law" - I see no evidence that Paul, or Jesus, or any other writer of scripture treated the 10 commandments as different from the other 603 elements of the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

The Law of Moses CONTAINS the 10 commandments.
The ones that were written in stone.
The other ordinances/rules were NOT written in stone.

Are you suggesting that the mere fact the 10 were written on stone means they continue on while the others are done away with? That seems like speculation to me - again, I see no evidence that Jesus, or anyone else who penned scripture, drew any kind of distinction between the 10 commandments and the rest of the law.

 

[GodsGrace]

do you know that pigs eat garbage and dead things and sometimes tiny living baby pigs? - pigs are carnivores and scavengers - they also root in the dirt and feces etc and so in many ways are not a good food source - the herbivores God told us to eat don't do any of these piggish things

i don't have a problem with anyone doing what they believe is pleasing to God

I agree. If someone tells me they could sin all they want to and still be a disciple of Christ, they will get pushback. But if someone is doing MORE than is required,,,then that is between them and God. It is not a bad thing, and it does not cause one to lose their faith in God. If anything, it would strengthen it.

We may consider it a work...but it is not work to the person who does it joyfully.

i'm blessed to keep torah

the only point i like to make in torah discussions is that God's original laws had/have/will always have really profoundly wise basis - iow they are not outdated - science actually catches up the the bible - science has discovered that the autoimmune protocol diet is the best way to keep our immune systems from turning on us and attacking us - funny thing jews have discovered the aip is the exact diet God prescribed which christians today say has passed away/no longer applies

thanks for the discussion - thanks for being an honorable poster - i love how you never try to bully anyone into accepting your views - and how you are accepting of other's views - you make this forum a nicer place via your wonderful attitude and behavior

God bless you

I agree. Every ordinance and rule in the O.T. was for a reason. Circumcision was for a reason.
Not boiling a kid in its mother's milk was for a reason.

If a person feels they want or need to follow some o.t. rules that can fit into today's society, and they do NOT follow them, the result will be a guilty conscience. And this is a sign that there is sin.

No one here is the Holy Spirit !
I think discussing is good unless it gets out of hand.

 

[GodsGrace]

But the text says what it says - the law against coveting made Paul more covetous - not simply because it "revealed" his covetous - the law actually made him want to covet more than he would otherwise want to!

This is what Paul actually says. We need to accept it and not bend it into something else.


You (and others) have created the term "moral law" - I see no evidence that Paul, or Jesus, or any other writer of scripture treated the 10 commandments as different from the other 603 elements of the Law of Moses.

Drew,,,As I've said before,,,I can't convince you of the Moral Law.
If you believe ALL of the 613 were the same in TYPE...then so be it.

As to Romans 7 and coveting....
Why do you think having a law about coveting, made Paul covet more?

BTW,,,don't think of a pink elephant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you suggesting that the mere fact the 10 were written on stone means they continue on while the others are done away with? That seems like speculation to me - again, I see no evidence that Jesus, or anyone else who penned scripture, drew any kind of distinction between the 10 commandments and the rest of the law.

Those two slabs of stone were put into the Ark.
God directly spoke to the Israelites in the Sinai.
God confirmed what had been the Moral Law since the beginning of time.

Do you understand that God is a moral being and that we are made in His image?
Do you realize that even non-Christians believe in the Moral Law?


So YES, I do suggest that the 10 continue on while the others are "done away" with.

 

[JLB]

The N.T. is full of verses about following our conscience.
A conscience that has been trained in the way of God, will also
hear the voice of God.

If we do not do what we hear,,,it is sin for us.

Romans 14:1-10
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.


1 Timothy 1:18-19
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.


I don't understand your comment about a fire and the moral law.

You keep referring to the 10 Commandments.

The 10 Commandments included keeping the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses.


One of the many aspects of observing the Sabbath under the law of Moses required the children of Israel, not to kindle a fire on the Sabbath.

Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:3


Since you insist on claiming we are to keep the 10 Commandments which includes strict Sabbath observance, my question to you is:

What does not kindling a fire have to do with the
“Moral Law” ?


JLB

 

[JLB]

And the N.C. does not require circumcision or keeping the 7th day holy.

So why keep going on about the 10 Commandments?


The New Testament says “His Commandments”.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You keep referring to the 10 Commandments.

The 10 Commandments included keeping the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses.


One of the many aspects of observing the Sabbath under the law of Moses required the children of Israel, not to kindle a fire on the Sabbath.

Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:3


Since you insist on claiming we are to keep the 10 Commandments which includes strict Sabbath observance, my question to you is:

What does not kindling a fire have to do with the
“Moral Law” ?


JLB

I said I will not discuss keeping the Sabbath on this thread.
You can start a new thread if you wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

So why keep going on about the 10 Commandments?


The New Testament says “His Commandments”.



JLB

Call it what you will.

Theologians, who know more than we do, call it the Moral Law.
You can call it His Commandments, but I don't know who would understand you in a normal conversation.

Would you care to tell us the difference between His commandments and God's commandments?

 

[Truthfrees]

Having raised pigs I can say that they are clean, loving animals that are a great source of protein throughout the world. They are unclean under the Old Covenant only.

Acts 10:9-15, "About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

pigs clean up the feces in their pens by eating it - they clean up dead things in their pen by eating it - that is not the kind of clean animal God told us to eat -

here are just a few quick articles and videos that prove pigs are omnivores - God told us to eat plants and herbivores - the animals God told us not to eat all happen to be carnivores and scavengers and omnivores - if you see what pigs eat as per the articles and videos below you will problably never again wonder why God said don't eat pigs

1. https://www.nadis.org.uk/disease-a-z/pigs/savaging-of-piglets/#:~:text=Occasionally sows will attack their,sow will eat the piglets.
"Occasionally sows will attack their own piglets - usually soon after birth - causing injury or death. In extreme cases, where feasible, outright cannibalism will occur and the sow will eat the piglets. "

2. https://www.livescience.com/50623-pigs-facts.html#:~:text=Pigs, boars and hogs are,small reptiles, National Geographic reported.
" Pigs, boars and hogs are omnivores and will eat just about anything. Wild boars eat roots, fruit, rodents and small reptiles, National Geographic reported. "

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig -
"Because of the biological similarities between each other, pigs can harbor a range of parasites and diseases that can be transmitted to humans. These include trichinosis, Taenia solium, cysticercosis, and brucellosis. Pigs are also known to host large concentrations of parasitic ascarid worms in their digestive tract.[42] Some strains of influenza are endemic in pigs. Pigs also can acquire human influenza."

4. pigs eat dead things:

5. pigs eat feces:

 

[Drew]

scripture please - you are saying things scripture doesn't say

What I am saying comes directly from Scripture. Per JLB's post:

For I am the LORD your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. For I am the LORD who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.’ ” Leviticus 11:44-47

It is simply not Biblically tenable to claim that God does not say that certain foods defile.

 

[Drew]

Keeping the Law of Moses is no longer required for the followers of Jesus.
BUT within the Law of Moses are the 10 commandments.
These must be kept.

OR
you have become like those that state we do not need to follow the commandments in order to be or remain saved.

A misleading contrast. People like me, and likely others here, can

(1) Affirm that we no longer need to look to the 10 commandments for moral guidance
(2) Affirm that we need to behave ourselves to "be or remain saved".

Just because the instruction to "not covet" happens to be in the Law of Moses does not, of course, mean that anyone who comes to believe that coveting is sin is following the Law of Moses. Much of your position seems to rest on this error. For example, the Holy Spirit could tell me not to covet - I don't need the Law of Moses. Or Jesus could tell me not to covet - again, no need for the Law of Moses.

 

[GodsGrace]

A misleading contrast. People like me, and likely others here, can

(1) Affirm that we no longer need to look to the 10 commandments for moral guidance
(2) Affirm that we need to behave ourselves to "be or remain saved".

Just because the instruction to "not covet" happens to be in the Law of Moses does not, of course, mean that anyone who comes to believe that coveting is sin is following the Law of Moses. Much of your position seems to rest on this error. For example, the Holy Spirit could tell me not to covet - I don't need the Law of Moses. Or Jesus could tell me not to covet - again, no need for the Law of Moses.

Do not covet is in the 10 commandments.

I hope you answer my request asking that you explain what Paul meant about the law making him covet all the more.

And I hope JLB sees your number 1 comment because this is what happens when we hear that we are no longer required to obey the commandments.

 

[JLB]

Would you care to tell us the difference between His commandments and God's commandments?

The 10 Commandments were from the law of Moses and included the Sabbath requirements as dictated by that law.


His Commandments refer to the law of Christ and are referred to throughout the writings of the New Testament.


Example:


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:24


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



His commandments refer to love and forgiveness, both of which He taught us about and carry the penalty of eternal damnation if not obeyed.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:24


Then there are the works of the flesh, most of which are not mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

Not mentioned in the 10 Commandments are highlighted in red.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


again


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor
nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


again


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10



JLB

 

[jaybo]

Regarding truthfrees' post...

"pigs clean up the feces in their pens by eating it - they clean up dead things in their pen by eating it - that is not the kind of clean animal God told us to eat -

here are just a few quick articles and videos that prove pigs are omnivores - God told us to eat plants and herbivores - the animals God told us not to eat all happen to be carnivores and scavengers and omnivores - if you see what pigs eat as per the articles and videos below you will problably never again wonder why God said don't eat pigs"

and more...

My reply: You can get information about pigs from various media (including youtube? really??) and believe what you want but I repeat: Pigs are clean, amusing, and loving animals. I have never seen pigs behave in the ways you describe -- ever.

Pork chops, bacon, ham, etc. are very tasty, nutritious foods that are consumed daily by millions of people worldwide with no consequences.

 

[JLB]

pigs clean up the feces in their pens by eating it - they clean up dead things in their pen by eating it - that is not the kind of clean animal God told us to eat -

Pigs that are indigenous and eat natural and don’t live in pens don’t live the same as commercial pork.


Same for chickens and even Salmon and Talapia.


JLB

 

[Drew]

I'm trying to show you that the O.T. laws are categorized.

By you and others - no writer of scripture, nor Jesus, categorizes scripture in the sense that you are. Where does any writer of scripture say that such and such laws are to be retained and such and such other laws are to be discarded?